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Scenic Route
Life's one helluva ride — why not enjoy the view?
The Scenic Route Podcast is your audio chill pill, serving up mindset shifts, laughs, and 'aha!' moments that fuel your soul and your wallet.
We're all about:
- Finding purpose (without the fluff)
- Embracing the soft life (because hustle culture is so last season)
- Real talk (sugar-coating? Not around here)
- Actionable insights (for when you're ready)
- Daring convos (we go there, babes)
- Building resilience (without the toxic positivity)
- Mindfulness for real people (with real problems)
Whether you're feeling lost and emotionally exhausted, hiding from your kids in the bathroom, need a break from the chaos, or want to zen out, we've got you covered.
Join Jennifer Walter, sociologist (MASoc UCC) and pathfinder, on this journey to inner peace — with a generous side of potty humour.
Ready to care less about others' BS and more about your own bliss? Hop on The Scenic Route. Trust us, the view up here is *chef's kiss*.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Your next chill session awaits. You coming?
Scenic Route
Guiding with Grace: Leadership Lessons from the World of Dance with Leslie Kuny
Step into the leadership rhythm with Leslie Kuny on Episode 61 of the Scenic Route Podcast. Leslie delves into the symbiotic relationship between our bodies and our inner fortitude. From the dance studio to the yoga mat and the weightlifting platform, discover how movement can forge self-trust and amplify your problem-solving prowess.
In this episode, we peel away the layers of self-critique that athletes face, from the dance world to figure skating, and confront the cultural stereotypes surrounding the 'dancer's body.' Leslie offers an intimate exploration of the psychological battles with negative self-talk and how the art of positive reinforcement can shift cultural perceptions and enhance personal development.
Embark on a journey into the heart of leadership, with insights on coaching with empathy, balancing confidence nurturing, and the universal principles of guiding others with grace and resilience. Whether leading a corporate team or managing family dynamics, this episode will equip you with the tools for compassionate and effective leadership.
Why You Should Listen
- Embrace Movement as a Metaphor for Resilience
Leslie shares how diverse movement practices build resilience and inner strength. - Overcome the Critic Within
We discuss strategies to navigate and silence harsh self-criticism. - Empower the Next Generation
Leslie reveals her approach to coaching young women with empathy and strength. - Learn the Dance of Leadership
How dance can teach us about leadership and compassion. - Cultivate Trust and Respect
Uncover how trust and respect form the foundation of all leadership. - Discover the Essence of True Leadership
How we define a modern approach to impactful leadership.
Join Leslie Kuny and me on the Scenic Route Podcast for an episode full of laughter, revelations, and empowering discussions that promise to transform your leadership and life experiences.
Connect with Leslie
Website
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LinkedIn
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Desire to find your Scenic Route? Visit jenniferwalter.me — a welcoming space for the emotionally exhausted to rest, discover, and playfully embrace inner peace. Embrace a softer, more fulfilling life today!
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Leslie Kuny</h1> Leslie Kuny is an award-winning choreographer and dance educator. Her mission is to bring joy and passion back to competitive dancers and their community. A graduate of Grant McIan University's Dance Program and Simon Fraser University Bachelor of Fine Arts, leslie uses her post-secondary training to foster exponential growth in her students. Over the past 20 years, leslie has devoted herself to training dancers in a supportive, empowering environment and the choreographing for competitive and recreational dance studio schools and pre-professional training programs. In addition to teaching and performing, leslie has worked in advocacy and administration with the Vancouver Ballet Society, the Dancers' Transition Resource Centre and the Canadian Dance Teachers Association. She is a member of the Professional Educators Alliance, a level two certified educator by Canadian Dance Leadership and a co-founder and director of Ignite Dance Centre.
Jennifer Walter:Leslie welcome to the Scenic Route Podcast. Hi, jennifer, thank you so much for having me. Well, it's always a pleasure to talk to people who have a completely different background than what I do. I mean, I'm more, like I don't know, a head person, so it took me really a while to connect with my body. And having you, having a dance educator and someone with, like a fine arts degree and dance degree, this is going to be really interesting From your perspective when it comes to trusting our bodies, was it always kind of like an easy journey for you, like working with your body over the years?
Jennifer Walter:Or you're like, oh, it was a rocky road? Yeah, I would say the latter. I was like, as soon as you were like what, oh, it's easy for your body, I was like, oh no, that's like a drop in the towel that has come with, like age and wisdom, which I think is something to like, keep in mind for, like everybody, like, which is so painful, especially when you're like I want to now, like I want to be, I want to be able to do the thing, but there is something good about that. But also, I mean, you're not old, whatever you know, bless your heart. Well, I mean, spill it, sister. How old are you? Do you want to spill it? I'm gonna be brave, I'm gonna be very brave. Actually, I just turned. Oh, if I vomit, I'll do it off camera.
Jennifer Walter:I just turned 40 this year and I even think that out loud a little bit. You know what, my body, you know what. We're in the same fucking boat. I'll turn 40 disjune. So I'm just gonna save space. This is the same space. It's wild too because, like, I don't feel 40. I don't Um, even just saying that word in relationship to me and my body, I think I'm just gonna like I, it doesn't resonate. 40.
Jennifer Walter:Still, I think feels old and you're like a 40 year old should look like this, or a 40 year old can only do this, and I think where the disconnects comes is that I'm like I don't feel like my body is a 40 year old's body, like I have kept it moving and I have tried to be more intuitive and I look back at photos of my my mom and my grandma when they were 40 and I was like and I'm like I don't look like that, like I don't not, yeast, my mom is off. I don't want to, I know, but they know what you mean. I know what you mean, but like it's, it's just changed, so maybe it was the ice fashion or something, but yeah, and the hair, and my hair is just I know. So, yeah, being in my body hasn't hasn't always been comfortable, even though I've been in a, in a movement practice like my whole life and I'd have done other. I currently am doing other movement practices besides just just coaching, which I primarily do now. So I don't dance really as much. But you know, I found yoga and I was like, oh, this is a space where it's very much like not a performative thing, I'm not looking in the mirror, I'm not getting that like critical feedback judgment from myself. I had a lot of like awareness about my day that came from yoga that I like, adored, and now I'm doing I'm more into working out and lifting weights and I am like I'm lift, I'm lifting weights, which is like wild. They're like so fun and also proving to me like I'm like, oh, I can do hard things.
Jennifer Walter:I think that by moving our body and becoming more connected with our body, it gives us proof to our logical brain that we can do difficult things. It's like it's literally like a, it's like an experiment and you prove to yourself what you're capable of and then your brain goes, oh, I got that. So when you come up with something that's like a brain teaser or a problem that you have to solve logically, you can look back at your evidence. You're like well, I just squatted like a hundred pounds the other day. This is not a problem. This I can do. This, I can figure it out.
Jennifer Walter:If I can do that, I can do this, and that's where I like the relationship of movement in your body to like being able to conquer and to be able to self-trust in like, oh, if I can do this, yeah, yeah, because I think I'm a human who, like really needs proof. Like I'm the kid who in chemistry I was like why, but why? Why? Okay, invisible, I got it. Why I'm like show me, like at us, like, show me I have. I live with a civil engineer. My husband is like in the science, like STEM realm. It's like bless, because he's a very accommodating. But I just was like, as soon as I understand why, I'm good to go.
Jennifer Walter:And so when you've got that proof and you can look back and say, like I did the thing, I can do it again. That is where the strength to move forward comes and you can like trust yourself a little bit more each time. Yeah, it's, that's really interesting that I never, I never really made the connection with oh, I benched this much. Then I can also do this. Yeah, I guess my brain's not or hasn't been wired like this, yet I am rewiring my brain that way. Yeah, it's super helpful. Like yeah, yeah, it's a rewire, for sure, for sure, yeah, and I think this happens.
Jennifer Walter:I mean, for me, it's usually like tied to my chronic illness, like I have endometriosis, so I'm like well, yeah, like if I could do this, then I'm good, like yeah, I'll survive, which right, and I think I think that's really, really important and it's also how we build resiliency, especially because I work with you and not something that I felt I lacked, like I had to be perfect or I was trash, and so now I'm trying to build resiliency in youth and also myself, like at the same time, because it works together where, like the kids will be like I'm nervous or I'm scared to do this and I'm like okay, and then, if we don't nail it, if you make a mistake or something goes wrong, it's like are you going to blow up? Are you going to spontaneously, are you going to die? It's the stage going to like explode, like are your mom and dad going to like just like not take you home that night to your like safe, warm house, where people love you, where like no, I'm like right. So we good and the mistakes help us learn and like that helps reframe for them and myself of like not a catastrophe.
Jennifer Walter:If you can do this, you can do that, yeah, and I suppose it's you're never really done working on this, right? You're never really. You never really done, right I don't figure. No, I mean where you're like I conquered that mountain, I'm good. Yeah, yeah, you're like time to kick back and relax. I mean, I'd like to think that, but I think I know a little bit better. As soon as you feel that way, you're like no, there's another mountain coming. Oh yeah, oh god. Yeah, you're feeling too cocky and it's like oh, wacky over the head. Oh yes, oh god. Yes, carmisa bitch, you said an interesting thing earlier that I'm kind of like oh, I wanna dive deeper there.
Jennifer Walter:I mean when you said, oh, the critical feedback when you were dancing in front of the mirror, and I'm like, oh yeah, like I mean, yeah, I said I did figure skating, which usually was in front of a mirror, except in summer school practice and stuff, but it was in front of a mirror. So I imagine if you're doing ballet or jazz dance or something that's in front of these huge jazz mirrors and you, yeah, I imagine there are a lot of pretty nasty thoughts creeping up on you. You know how how do you deal with that? I I'm till now, I think, because it's such a youth-centric thing and, unlike soccer or baseball or you know some other sports, you aren't subject to looking at your changing body for hours at a time, trying to fit a mold that has and I suppose a very narrow mold right, I think we have a big expectations or a big ideas of what it means to have a dancer's body, or a dance athlete to look like a dancer. Yeah, thankfully the culture is changing, which I'm, like, very grateful for, and the reality of the reality is like it's the same with gymnasts or swimmers a certain type of body type and the way you build your body will help you succeed. That's just where it is.
Jennifer Walter:But for youth dance, like we gotta train, we gotta let these kids know that, like their body is just exactly perfect to how it is and it's strong and incapable. But you're in puberty, you're like hormones are wild and you're standing in front of a mirror for hours at a time every week, with a whole bunch of other people who are also going through the same thing and having those critical thoughts about yourself, judging others, not out of a mean place, but out of a way to try to build yourself up, to find some sort of confidence, some sort of stepping stone to stand on, or comparing Right, like, oh, that person's leg can go that high or, oh, she's got this sort of flexibility and it can be. Really, I mean, it is really detrimental and it was something that really plagued me. It still plagued me, I would say, because the negative self-talk, in whatever you do, is so powerful it has, regardless of which space you exist in, whether you are performing or you work in an office or you work for a municipality or what have you. One thing that goes awry, one thing that isn't quite how you wanted it to be, that just there's something about the strength of that Velcro that sticks to you and you need so many more positive Velcro sticky to get to you. So, yeah, that's such a good visual. Yes, yeah, it's like that one negative Velcro sticky is like the size of your waist Tonne and then the positive ones are like the size of a quarter and you're like, great, like I need to suck quarter and someone like give me a quarter please. Yeah, it's such a good image because, I don't know, we're so wired this way to put so much more emphasis and weight on the negative and use it to reinforce the beliefs we consciously or unconsciously hold of we're not good enough, we're not lovable, we are not XYZ.
Jennifer Walter:I mean, everyone has a different story of why they believe they can't have nice things or don't deserve a leg that goes up that high or whatever it is right. I mean, yeah, whatever it could be, and I think there's a weird programming and maybe this comes from like a previous culture, socio sort of space that we're, I think we're moving out of. I wanna say, where, by focusing on the negative, it's gonna drive you to be successful. Like you know what your flaws are, yes, and yeah, I figure about like you gotta be really self-reflective and, don't get me wrong, I think being self-reflective is very important. In fact, I see some people who are like a little too, and I'm like you need to reflect a little more, you gotta like bring it down, because there's a happy medium to be had.
Jennifer Walter:But I do think that that comes from a time and a space where we were like find your flaws, fix your flaws, like that's how you're gonna gain success, which is true, but it became so, so heavy and so so hard that I think that that sticks with some of us still, where we're like, oh the harder I point out those flaws, the sooner I can fix them. And what really just happens is you just shake shade on them instead of fixing them, yeah, and then end up making them worse, right, yeah, yeah, oftentimes you're not actually fixing anything, or you're fixing that but you're wrecking something else, yeah, yeah, and it's so interesting. I mean this goes to say this is kind of like very similar to when you look at it from a business perspective, like you're always like oh, if you wanna do successful marketing, you have to do like pain point marketing, you have to like tell them all the things that hurt, so they go buy shit to feel better, right, and which is very much like how our whole like, which is basically capitalism and a nutshell, yeah, and it's so important to be like you know what? I actually have everything already, or I can tap into everything that to feel whole and to feel safe. And I'm curious, you said you're especially or currently working with youth and like teenagers and I mean I remember my teenage years were, I don't know. There were weird, like on one hand, there were the Spice Girls and then, on the other hand, there was Nirvana, and I was kind of like in the middle and I don't know. I desperately didn't want to belong to a box, so I kind of made my own box, which was a box again, yeah, and I remember it was just weird, right, like your body was changing, as you said, the hormones.
Jennifer Walter:How do you coach you or young women through this period, especially with dance? Because I remember we had a lot of very like competitive, mean girls situations and I mean that wasn't my school, that wasn't like something like dance where you would stand half naked in front of each, in front of each other, and like what. How do you approach this? Also, when you see it goes into not just like, let's say, like a healthy, sports-based comparison and competitiveness, but it's really, it's getting personal, it's getting. How do you approach this With so much empathy and kindness? I just like let the script as much as I can. I've also been teaching dance for close to 20, I'll say 20 years, so there's been a lot of trial and error and a lot of like growth and what I've really recognized is I've taken some of what I needed and I got a lot of incredible coaching when I was dancing.
Jennifer Walter:But it was also the 90s. That was a very different time and space of like all the things all, oh God, I mean it was Kay Mons and Kellogg's special K for breakfast. I mean that was wild, like I'm gonna have a great venue, yeah, so you know there was. I love it that way to say major, with the same cultural reference. I know, when I like make a reference, I like my kids just look at me. I'm like, oh no, they go. Yeah, yeah, all the other day it was so bad.
Jennifer Walter:I'm like we're getting off topic. We're back to topic. The other day I was making a reference to a quarter pounder with cheese. Yeah, no, and no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't like oh okay, okay, okay, yeah, and there were no. I got this blank stairs and I'm like, oh okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Yo, I'm not a boomer, I'm still a millennial. Like chill, like what's going on? Holy crap, I think millennial, the new boomer, I know, I know, I know I don't have a hundred percent.
Jennifer Walter:I want to hide in my sweater as well. I hide in my sweater. My kids will tell you I just turtle. I can't do it. I have like a lovely shirt on today. Well, I just like, if there's things I can't see. I'm just like I got to hide you guys and they're like, oh, was it bad? I was like, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't great. I was trying to get yeah. So I just want to look, I want to flip the script to give and to give what I wanted more of, to give one.
Jennifer Walter:I know this is such a great more of it and that's and this is a very like buzzy, high-fi sort of thing to talk about. But this whole feeling of like oh, it's a little gross to say, but like this healing the inner child, or just I don't even want to say healing, I want to say recognizing your inner child. It helps me as much as it helps the kids. So a lot of compassion, a lot of empathy, and I always talk about this and it's and it's tricky, but the more you can build trust and I mean like honest trust and that doesn't come from being just like a hype girl who's like, yeah, I like you're so great, I'm like that's awesome and that makes people feel good, yes, in that moment. But then they're always going to need that when you can hype them up in a I see how hard you have been working and you nailed it. I want you to recognize the effort you put in and then the result that you got, and I am so proud because you did not give up on yourself. That sort of coaching, yeah, in any space, whether it's like marketing or sales or whatever sort of like yes, you know, personal sort of relationships you're in. That is so much more valuable and that built trust, yes, between the two people and then that person's able to go. Yeah, I did that and they can take like true, they feel confident and it's not from a braggy or like an over the top sort of arrogant sort of space, but it's also not like false humility either. It's really rooted in I saw what I did, I put in the work and I got. I got what I wanted. Yeah, again, circling back to like then that's giving them proof and that's how I remind them. You know, I literally. It's so funny.
Jennifer Walter:I was just a competition last night. I had two incredible dancers competing in the advanced category. They've never competed in the advanced category before and they were psyching themselves out before they got on stage. They were like we're dead, we're destroyed, we can't, and I was like you guys really need to stop, because this is not helpful. I was like, unless that's how you want to end up, if that's what you think is going to happen, you can have it.
Jennifer Walter:But I don't think that's true. You have awesome dances. You have worked very, very hard and as we were watching other dancers I was like your dances are totally different. They are so different than everybody else on stage. It's like comparing apples and oranges. We've all got the same chance, and that goes the same for people Like I'm an apple, this person's been out of this person's orange, and then there's another passion fruit. Together we make an awesome fruit salad. But like we've all got our own name, all got our own strength.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, and they went out. I could not believe they were up against kids who have been training for like 10 hours, 15 hours a week for multiple years. And these kids like just kind of cranked up to that this year and they were so, so great, like didn't come last in any of their categories. And I was just like see what you can do, don't talk yourself out of that success before you go do it. And I was like, okay, so next time can we like calm the calm down a little bit? Yeah, because we've proven to ourselves Yep, it's hard and we can do it. That's my big thing.
Jennifer Walter:I've really tried to take out the word but from my vocabulary yes, yes, very tricky. Yes, when I go, yes, this is hard and I believe we can do it. Yeah, yes, this will be a challenge and we'll figure it out. No, it'll be so true. Yeah, absolutely, it's so true. And I love that you bring this up because it's one of the I don't know, maybe one of the sentences I say to my clients the most this and that can be true at the same time, it's not this or that, it's not black and white, it's not, but it's and because, yes, it's hard and you got this right, it's one doesn't negate the other or makes the other less true or less plausible or whatever it is. Both things can be clear, true, and I really love that. You said, yeah, gonna lead from like a point of compassion and it really. This is really great leadership advice which you said there.
Jennifer Walter:Like I kind of look back and wish what I would have like heard or seen or received or felt, which is one of really humbling experience, I feel, because I do the same whenever I have like a tricky situation, I don't know. That arises when I don't know someone's I don't know something went wrong and someone's mad. I'm like, okay, how could I resolve this, this situation? And then I'm like, okay, if I were that person, how would I want it to have handled or to be handled? And, yeah, sometimes I well, there's still times I missed the mark, but I mean, it's inevitable because you're not that person.
Jennifer Walter:But when you can, when you can, when you can kind of look at things from the other side of the coin, even if sometimes that might make you a little if so, fine, I was just talking about this even if it makes you a little bit distressed. Like I prefer to send emails because it gives me a little bit of space. But sometimes I'm like, oh, I have to look at it from the other side of the coin. That person might actually prefer it to be in person conversation, even though it's difficult for me. And so, oh, wow, sorry, I just kind of clicked into.
Jennifer Walter:That's really what leadership is. So sorry, I didn't have like you just literally saw me have like a like yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw, I saw, I saw the penny drop. But I'm like, okay, I want to hear a penny drop. Like that is where. That is where I think and I'm and I think, hope I'm moving a little bit more towards that every day.
Jennifer Walter:But that's where true leadership comes from. Where you go this would be the convenient and easy way for me and this is the way I would like to do it and sometimes you're going to do that and and see, look, and you've got to turn around and look at the other side of the coin. Go like I think that person would appreciate this more. And that's where the connection and not especially when things are difficult, when you are sort of trying to repair something that maybe hasn't been, hasn't felt as as good as you'd like it to, or there's a bit of a struggle, or you know, you don't see eye to eye I think that's very beneficial and that's true leadership. Where you go, you can step away from what you naturally would like to do and step into more power. Look at it from the other side and say like okay, let's come together and like figure this out.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, this is so true and that's a really great example to really to to live by and maybe find a better way to like work with our differences right, to really be like hey, and I know it's super, it's super stressful, like I mean I don't know the highest, most high stress situations. I mean I've been in corporate but the most high stress situations are like I don't know when you want to get out of door, because if doppers appointment, if you're screaming two year old, yeah, I'm like yeah, those gloves are losing it. But I mean now, looking back, every time there was this kind of situation, it really also forced me to step up my leadership game, right, because there was a default that I wanted to do. My default was to, I don't know, yell at my kid to just get the fuck moving, which would not have been helpful at all in this situation, but it took me. I needed space to kind of like have like just a split second to catch myself and be like, okay, what, what is actually helpful in this situation? And maybe I mean there were times when was like okay, cancelling the plan Because this is not going to work.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, I mean, yeah, if that's an option, right, yeah, and yeah, this is really. I think, yeah, you've said it right, it's a penny draw, but a true leadership, absolutely yeah, and it's always a work in progress because I, you know, you want to be a leader because you I mean, at least for myself like I enjoy being around people, I like taking responsibility. I've always been that kid. I was always like let's go this way, like let's do the thing, like I'm going to work a nice, to trip 100%. I'm the kid on stage, we're all five, everybody's following me, like I'm, like I'm the leader, I know what's up and that's beneficial. And then you get around to like phase two or even like oh, maybe you can say like phase three, and you go, oh, hold on, I've got to step back. I'm like it's been really beneficial and it's I didn't. Yeah, tricky and and, but also rewarding and fulfilling. I mean the leadership can go into dictatorship. So I mean yeah, yeah, well, and I think, and I think like that.
Jennifer Walter:That is something that I'm very conscious of, especially in performing arts and in dance, the very like old school, sort of like tall European mean I don't mean to paint Europeans with a broad brush, because high, all, clearly that's my ancestry, but like there's a sort of like you know, intense ballet instructor who's like got a stick and poeing and saying you know, like I have I already hear the voice Right Like I'm like and the whole idea of like, of leading through fear, and I've just like, completely thrown that out the window. I'm like I, I don't subscribe to those, yeah, those ways of doing things anymore, because I just I honestly don't think that they're super beneficial. And as I've moved towards more of a hey I'm, I'm the leader, but I'm a part of the team, I there's no pedestal for me to be on. I am, I'm in it with you and we're going to work out it together, whether that's like with the staff that I work with or with my students. I'm like, I'm very much like whatever team I'm a part of, like, I'm a part of that team.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, um, yeah, to make, to give more equity and to build that trust, and so there is rapport and it's not like I'm the boss and you're going to do what I say. And I think you can apply that to parenting. You can apply it also. Like you know, you're called worker, I slay gay, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I, and it makes for a more harmonious sort of space and that, even when there are challenges like hi, I work with teenagers all the time.
Jennifer Walter:They do not want to take off their hoodies. I'm like yo, you got to take off your hoodie so you can do a bunch of jumping jacks and like high kicks, like get your, get your blood flowing faster, and like warm, warm up, or or take it off and free, like find your, you know and and finding that respect of, like yours. It really is like parenting. I know a lot of parenting, like information, I suppose. I suppose so, I mean yeah, I suppose so. I have no experience in parenting teenager yet, but I mean, yeah, it's mean either I just, I just, oh, parent, um, it's been the dance Right, but like it was like the information for toddlers. You go red shirt, blue shirt, oh God, yeah, and it's the same, it's the same thing. We've done Like, we've just put it over here on like 15 year old, 100%. I mean.
Jennifer Walter:One of the books I recommend to my clients the most is actually a book on childhood development. I love it. I love like how the brain develops and how the brain works and and it's really just crucial information and you can like, oh, yeah, I've got to know this. Like this is going to actually like blow your mind. Um, now I had such a good question. Oh, I'm so sorry. Sometimes I have these mom brain parts where I'm just like never think it's gone and I'm like what? But um, it's sure it will. It will, oh, oh, yes, it's coming back to me. I'm curious. I agree with I mean I'm going like full on stereotype. When you said like the media German in it, and I say to me the voice was like a me German or a mean Russian. That is the and we've seen it in class as a stereotype. I mean it's, it's perpetuated. I mean yeah, and and yes, I, I love that.
Jennifer Walter:He said like believing in distributed equity and kind of like being a part of the team. I, that's also how I, when I was a corporate, how I led my team and there were instances. I'm curious how you navigate this where the lines between leadership or parent and friend, leader and team member gets blurred, yeah, and you kind of like have to step, put your foot down a bit on the leadership side, like, yeah, how, how do you navigate this? How? I mean especially, I mean I know all of my clients are, are blessed their heart, I love them, they all know this.
Jennifer Walter:Some of them are diehard people, pleasers. Oh, yeah, hi, and when they lead teams they're they want to make it as comfortable for as possible for everybody and very admirable. But sometimes they they get a bit of, become a bit of like being pushed over. Yeah, how do you navigate this space? Yeah, hi, I feel like I'm a secretary of the people pleasers club, so, oh, okay, I'll get your membership card out to all your oh, perfect, yes, please do your clothes. Do you should do a slack group?
Jennifer Walter:Um, yeah, so for me myself, which is a mall, so which is also a bit of people pleasing, perfectionist, procrastination, self preservation sort of space, I went to stay combination. Oh, I'm, I'm, I love the intersectionality of this small yard, I love the ball of yard, um, but, um, so my whole goal, as much as possible, is to be as proactive as as I can. So really thinking ahead and being like okay, where could these potential snakes, where could these potential tech, a tech sort of moments come up where I'm going to have to go head to head and be like, yo, yeah, this is not going to fly and yeah, and that's really where the yes and comes in. So the more you can then can use it, the better trust and respect very important. Without that built up within that relationship, it makes it much harder to put your to put your foot down, not even as a stop, like, because as a people pleaser I don't really want to stop around, um, and and also setting up boundaries that feel okay for me, um, as as a people pleaser. So, like, my clients do not have my personal telephone number, it's like a hard line. You can contact me a myriad of other ways, but that's my home phone number. My friends and my family have that and that's, but like maybe one parent because, like, if I'm running late, I have to let that know that I'm late.
Jennifer Walter:Um, so when things come to a head, my whole goal is that I have worked hard enough, I have planned hard enough, we have created a safe space where everyone feels trusted and respected. But when I have to say I see what you're saying and this is still the way it is going forward, hmm, it comes with a package of I see where she's coming from. I might not like it, but yeah, you know, and that is that is the tricky part for me Like I'm sitting with that in a couple of ways, I've got a student who really doesn't like her costume and I'm like we're going to wear it. And she wore it. I'm like very proud of her. We sort of like combated with that.
Jennifer Walter:Or, like you know, parents who obviously don't see eye to eye with some of the things that, like I'd like to do, or my partner and I like to do with the studio, and the best thing is the working relationship. Up to that point, I think, if you can create safety, space, trust and respect, um, so that when those things happen, you are working from a platform that makes it feel safe for the people, pleaser or a leader, to say yes, and this is how it's going to be. Yeah, yeah. I mean my partner is a teacher and like he's teaching like 10, 11 year olds at the moment. Yeah, um, and it always the first class he does is kind of like these are the ground rules, yes, yeah, these are the ground rules, do not cross them. Like this is the line in the sand, do not get lost at everything. You're on that line. You do yeah, right, yeah, exactly.
Jennifer Walter:And surprisingly not surprisingly it works really well for the kids. Of course you have those. I mean if I were to be in his class, it would be me who are like how often, how far can I tip, toe over in line? Right, you're like an errand, but usually it's also helping us to have these like the line in the sand. It'd be like okay, this is actually what is expected of me, and kind of like to have the expectation management and to know what is going to happen. Yes, yeah, yeah, I think it's key.
Jennifer Walter:That is something that I do at the beginning of this season. I'm like here's, and I think, if you can take it, I actually had someone describe it to me this way. I thought it was so great because I was like oh, like, maybe we don't have to wear, like, maybe I can be a little slack on uniform, or maybe I, you know, and I had this. I can't even recall who said it to me. I feel bad, I can't attribute to them, but they said they're like if you travel to Japan, do you expect that the people there are going to speak English to you? And I was like oh, of course not, I'm going to Japan. And she's like, right and like are you going to be able to order? Like I don't know, whatever your stereotypical for me, we'll just go real lean on real hard of the Canadian and be like are you going to be, are you going to expect them to serve you poutine when you go to like you know, like, no, like that, I mean like amazing.
Jennifer Walter:But that's something I was never. I could never make friends with routine. Like I don't know, I'm so special, I am so, um, it's a special thing Gravy and cheese. But do you know what I do miss At Ulcer? Oh my God, yeah, oh it's. You know what I do miss, though? And I would really be like, oh man, at Tim Horton's sour cream glaze donut, yeah, yeah, like the old school buttercream sour cream glaze ones. I'm a honey crueler girl. I'm not a Tim Horton person, but the honey crueler. The Boston cream when I was a teenager was the thing, and now I'm like it's too much. But yeah, I like the chocolate.
Jennifer Walter:But when you, when you travel, when you go somewhere, it would be silly to expect them to meet you exactly for, like, where you're at, going into another culture. You are going, you are putting yourself into another culture, and that happens when we join a team, um, or when we lead a team. We need to know what is our culture, we want to share. This is the culture, this is the expectations. Like, welcome to it, um, and and, if not, like that's, I think that's super beneficial to recognize, like, yeah, this is a different culture and but, but that also comes with education.
Jennifer Walter:Would you kind of like not enforcing the rules because you're a dictator, not enforcing the rules because that's the way it is? Um, that's the way it's always been done, which is like my most hated phrase. Oh God, yes, I'm like who says why in me, like, tell me about it, but it's like here's, here's the reason, here's the expectation when you're in, exist in this space. This is how we function and then, when you go home, you can do whatever you like. That's for you. But in this space, this is what we're all working towards. Yeah, um, we gotta have rules, right, because we have we, and one of the rules or one of the visions is share that goal and we're working towards that. And, yeah, it's yeah.
Jennifer Walter:And I find the people who, who are able to step into that like and and um, I don't want to say go along or follow, but the people who like work within that. Yeah, I find they have greater success than the people who who don't, for whatever, you know, you know there's lots of reasons. You know we forget this, or you know, life throws it's purple, but the more when someone offers you that, that like framework of which to work within, um, they're really do I, most of the time, I really do believe this they're setting that forward for your success, like, hey, here are the things that are going to bring you the best experience and the most success in this space. Yeah, and, and I've seen that be true. And then it gets also what you need to cultivate it as a trust that people know that you have their best interests in heart. Right, and yeah, and then I, I suppose you can go incredibly far. So I'm curious.
Jennifer Walter:We were talking a lot about like, okay, what does leadership mean? Leadership makes a true leader and I feel it always comes back to you and this is kind of like a hypothesis. I'm curious what do you think that the better you know yourself, the better leader, the better leader you can become? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'll I'll expand on that a little bit I think I think that's really really true, and the more I've become comfortable with myself, the more I've I understand about myself. It really helps me also share that, like I. I do share that with my clients quite frequently Like I'm like I'm hyper emotional and I do tend to be a perfectionist and I have turned those words from negatives to.
Jennifer Walter:I am very passionate and I have a lot of love and I hear deeply about this. Oh, that's, that's an example for flipping this script. I love it, yeah, yeah, it's like I really try not to get into like, oh, she's bossy. I'm like, yeah, I'm bossy, I'm a leader man. Like I try to really, because, again, this whole thing of like, especially women in leadership, it gets very you would never call them mad bossy Like it's so insane I know, I know. So like I'm, like, I'm passionate and this is my career and this is my heart and this is my. I don't want you all to do and to be able to do your best and yeah, yeah, this is how I do it. If this is not the way for you, then that's fine. But yeah, yeah, and be open to trying it.
Jennifer Walter:And the more I learn about, like the people that I work with whether they're like parents or or either, honestly, even just my family and my students the more and the more I learn about them, the better I can relate to them, the better I can sort of tailor what I'm offering them right, because one student who really gets fired up. You know, there I have two students who you know might see themselves as perfectionists, and one of them is really driven by competition and, like that, really likes a fire under her. So I'm going to coach her in a different way. I'm going to use my competitive spirit and that little part of me to be like, okay, here, here's how you can reframe that so, like, really find success. And then the other perfectionist, instead of it lighting her up and like really, like you know, pushing her to succeed, it makes her shrink and it makes her hide her natural gift. And so I have to use the part of me that, like I'm like that kid needs compassion and that kid needs to know how very special they are and how incredible I think they are already, regardless of how it goes on stage. So like, finding those bits of yourself and then being able to see them in other people, I think and I think that's exactly where you're coming from is like the more pieces you see of yourself, then you're able to like relate those nuggets to the people around you and and it all builds trust and respect and community. And then, yeah, yeah, makes leadership a little bit easier. I love this. So that's kind of like I'm trying to kind of like put it in my words, to kind of like really have true leadership.
Jennifer Walter:True leadership, it needs kind of like encapsulate the essence of what makes a leader not just effective but also like inspirational and really transformative. Right, because we have people who are inspirational and transformative but not effective, and that's also not not what we want. Right, we need direction, we need guidance. Yeah, so true leadership, as we now kind of like talked about it and like the past almost hour, is like transcending the boundaries of authority and expertise and having really this enduring commitment to integrity, like being integrated to yourself, to the cause, empathy and innovation, curiosity you said it a couple of times like being curious, trying new things and inspiring others to achieve their fullest potential. Right, and not true like like coursing them into things or dictating things, but through leading with example and the courage to dream big.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, yeah, oh, that really I'm like, I'm going to go back and listen to that. Like set that, do you want to cross? Stitch it on a pillow? Like feel free to, you can quantify. Yeah, it was, I will, I will, I think the way that that was like so and I want to like cling on to all those words, but I also just wanted to let it resonate. Let it resonate, oh, sometimes, so it's just needs to resonate. Yeah, I'm also still like resonating. I love this. This is such an like. Yeah, this has been such an interesting like dance through, like, what leadership means and how we can learn to, yeah, be a better leader and really show off.
Jennifer Walter:Or the people, like, even if you think you're not a leader, there are, yeah, you're leading people in your life. Yeah, and I will say I should. I feel like I should put this caveat out there for anyone, because I really, up until recently, I would say I really did not like the term. I didn't consider myself a leader. I didn't really want to like dive into that sort of like. I was a leader in that like see what it tells me about yourself, image issues. I know I know right, 100%, but but I think, as I've become more comfortable with who I am and and finding, finding, I think finding my leadership style, which is basically what I've kind of talked about. So, like, if it doesn't all resonate for everybody, I'm like good, that's good, because it's just mine, but like find the little nugget that that does resonate with you and then build, build your own leadership style. But I really I was, really, I really didn't like that word for a long, long time, because it doesn't have a negative or a patient. It does. Yeah, exactly yeah. But again I'm just trying to flip the script. I'm like I'm going to be a leader the way I want to be a leader. I can fill this category, however I wanted yeah, or that label and yeah, exactly yeah. So even if you don't feel like a leader, that's also okay, like 100%. Just find a different, find, a, find a word that resonates which is more yeah, yeah, yeah, what? Yeah, I mean I couldn't ask for a better closing on today's episode. I mean I have two more things. Yeah, we wrapped this up.
Jennifer Walter:Lastly, let us know where people can find you online. Yeah, where they hang out, where you're sharing it. I am mostly on Instagram. You can follow my dad's journey, my teaching and my leadership. Little nuggets it's literally just my name at Leslie Cooney over on Instagram. Leslie is with IE and Cooney's KUNY, so I'm over there being a giant goofball and then a, and the Fadal is ball of yarn, or yeah, yeah, yeah, a very multifaceted, multicolored ball of yarn, love it, and I'm on Facebook as well. If you search Leslie Cooney, dance educator, I'm over there and my website Leslie Cooneycom it's a baby website, be kind to me but it also has links to my YouTube where I get to showcase my work and you can see my choreography and my kid. I was saying, yeah, yeah, watch some dance on YouTube, watch some like. Not for reality television, damn. Yeah, okay, just for the joy of expressing ourselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is also there's also. Yeah, I mean we could do a totally different episode on doing something just for the thought of it and not for a competition or whatever.
Jennifer Walter:One last question, oh God, yeah. One last question. I'm always curious because I'm always kind of like, oh, I need new material. What book are you currently reading or what audio book are you listening to? Okay, I'm technically rereading, that's fine. I mean, I know because I really kind of ran out of books, unless they're like I'm rereading Twilight. Then I mean I mean no, no, no, you're a bit of a side-eye, but I mean you should. I'm not well, I've never read Twilight. I did, I've been there, but I mean over. I really like autobiography. Can I just plug a book that I think, oh, I mean you could just tell me what you're currently reading. I mean, I have no way of actually fact-checking this, but for me and my authenticity, I was like I don't want to. I thought between you and your authenticity is just like a you problem.
Jennifer Walter:I'm re-reading Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller. It's wonderful, but what I would actually, what I actually would really like to recommend because I did just finished reading it is how to Be Perfect by Michael Scherr. He's the creator. How to be perfect. The T is on another line. When you see the cover of the book, you'll be like, oh, I get it. It's a joke. It's not how, not a manual. How to be perfect. Okay, good, I was a tad worried for a split second. I'm like no, I don't know how these people, what type of, what version of? Lastly, did I just talk to Fair? No, it's how to Be Perfect by Michael Scherr.
Jennifer Walter:He is the co-creator of the American Office Brooklyn Nine-Nine and the Good Place, which, if you've watched oh, the Good Place, I love the Good Place, if you wait, wait, is that Is by Brooklyn Nine-Nine-One-One and the Good Place. Is that from the same person? Yeah, so Michael Scherr was involved in both of them and then Michael Scherr. I didn't know who he is. Michael Scherr also worked on the Office, the American version. Yeah, dwight Cousin Mose. That's really like getting hard on the beat farm. But Michael Scherr is a television writer and the book how to Be Perfect is, I feel, like it's a companion to the Good Place, and he started writing it after he started working on the Good Place.
Jennifer Walter:Being like what does it mean to be perfect? These philosophers and these big thinkers of our whole existence? Yeah, he breaks it down and he puts it in very. It was the most entertaining book to read. I couldn't put it down and so much of it. I literally. This is add to cart. Add to cart. Yeah, 100%.
Jennifer Walter:Everybody I never really like, I never like everybody should read this book If you are in leadership or even if you just deal with people on a day-to-day basis. It was so beneficial because as I was reading, I go, I would connect because they'd be telling me about a different type of philosophy or a way of thinking or a way of functioning in the world and I go that's that person. So now I'm like, oh, I'm not mad at that person because I think they're like a ding-dong. I'm like, oh, they're just working within this realm of like, and it was like brain explosions. I'm excited when I say it was like a textbook and I would highlight or underline things. Or I'm going to talk about this concept with my students because I think it's so important that they understand this. Yes, so that I can't.
Jennifer Walter:Michael Sher, if you want to send me money for plugging your book so much, that would be great. But also genuinely, genuinely, if you're in leadership to this, you're also welcome to come on the St E Group podcast. Yeah, I'm going to look at my culture. Yeah, we just talk about philosophy and the good place. I mean, I want to do an episode on the philosophy of the good place, like seriously, like I'm down the war, oh good, yeah, so like I love the show and the book was such a great like expansion and like very like realistic way of looking at it and very funny.
Jennifer Walter:You write like a person talks, like I was, like, oh, I'm just listening to my friend, I love it, I have a chip, yet it was phenomenal, phenomenal, phenomenal, phenomenal, perfect. Thank you so much for sharing that book with us. Of course, this is going to go on the St E Group library page. Oh, awesome, where you can like, where you can find it. Leslie, thank you so much for being on the St E Group with me. It was an absolute blast. Thank you so much, jennifer. I really, really appreciate it. This was great.
