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Scenic Route
Life's one helluva ride — why not enjoy the view?
The Scenic Route Podcast is your audio chill pill, serving up mindset shifts, laughs, and 'aha!' moments that fuel your soul and your wallet.
We're all about:
- Finding purpose (without the fluff)
- Embracing the soft life (because hustle culture is so last season)
- Real talk (sugar-coating? Not around here)
- Actionable insights (for when you're ready)
- Daring convos (we go there, babes)
- Building resilience (without the toxic positivity)
- Mindfulness for real people (with real problems)
Whether you're feeling lost and emotionally exhausted, hiding from your kids in the bathroom, need a break from the chaos, or want to zen out, we've got you covered.
Join Jennifer Walter, sociologist (MASoc UCC) and pathfinder, on this journey to inner peace — with a generous side of potty humour.
Ready to care less about others' BS and more about your own bliss? Hop on The Scenic Route. Trust us, the view up here is *chef's kiss*.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Your next chill session awaits. You coming?
Scenic Route
Midlife Career Shifts: Make Them Aligned and Fun with Emma O'Brien
In this heart-to-heart episode of the Scenic Route Podcast, we delve into the transformative journey of midlife career changes with Emma O'Brien, a life coach who navigated her own pivot from photography to coaching. Join us as we explore the strategic and emotional facets of embracing new ventures in midlife, shedding well-worn professional identities for a path filled with wisdom and youthful daring.
Episode Highlights
- Emma's Journey: From photography to life coaching, uncovering the layers of a midlife career transition.
- Heart as More Than an Organ: Insights into HeartMath and how heart coherence can empower decision-making and prevent burnout.
- The Lighter Side of Life: A laugh over our love for games, books, and shoe hoarding.
- Navigating Self-Competition: Tales from poker days to online gaming, and the importance of being kind to ourselves.
What You'll Learn
- How to harness the wisdom of your past and the excitement for new ventures during a midlife career change.
- The role of HeartMath and polyvagal theory in professional development and personal well-being.
- Strategies for self-care and preventing burnout as you navigate career transitions.
- The joy of embracing life's chapters, quirks, and all.
Join us for an episode packed with wisdom, whimsy, and actionable insights for anyone navigating the waters of midlife career change. Whether you're considering a shift or in the midst of one, this episode is a beacon of light guiding you towards a path of growth, self-awareness, and joy.
Connect with Emma
Website
LinkedIn
Instagram
Work with Emma
Download her "7 steps to getting unstuck"
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Desire to find your Scenic Route? Visit jenniferwalter.me — a welcoming space for the emotionally exhausted to rest, discover, and playfully embrace inner peace. Embrace a softer, more fulfilling life today!
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Emma O'Brien is a certified Harv Math coach and a Martha Beck Wayfinder trained life coach. She blends compassionate, intuitive and practical coaching skills with her extensive expertise in helping her clients shift their mindset and change their lives for the better. She helps folks get unstuck, recover from life burnout, overcome overwhelm and reignite their passion and purpose. Alongside her coaching practice, emma brings two decades of entrepreneurial expertise to the table. She's an award-winning dog photographer and, having run successful photography studios in both the UK and South Africa, she's adept at helping her clients with small business marketing and strategy too. Emma hosts the Lemons and Pineapples podcast, a weekly show where she shares her life hacks, coaching tools and inspiring insightful guest interview. Emma, welcome to the Scenic Route podcast.
Emma O'Brien:Hi, jennifer, it's lovely to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Jennifer Walter:We're going in today's topic of how we can navigate change, especially those of us, especially those of us like myself who are the 1984 babies, who are turning 40 this year. So I and I personally, are currently going to kind of like a pivot in my professional life. So this will go close to home and it just feels like it's a topic that's very hot at the moment. How do you, how do you see that? Do you have like clients as well who are like pivoting change? What's going on at the moment?
Emma O'Brien:yeah, I think. I think there's a lot of us going through a lot of people, a lot of us going through midlife changes. I think gone are the days of um being able to have a career that lasts you a whole lifetime. You know, we're wanting to do different things and it's interesting, you talk about turning 40.
Emma O'Brien:So I turned 43 this year and I'd say turning 40 was horrible and I kind of sat and my 40th birthday was in the middle of COVID and I had no party and no, oh no and not and and and it was just it was miserable. Actually I sat on my 40th birthday thinking I hate my life. This is awful, this is not what I wanted, can't believe I'm 40 and and all of the inner dialogue that went with that, and actually it was sad. Yeah, it was sad. Don't feel too sorry for me. I was feeling very sorry for myself and yeah, I think I was very stuck in what a negative space it was and I was thinking what have I done with my life? What am I doing? Where am I going? Is this it for me?
Jennifer Walter:I think that's a question that comes up and yeah, he's done it.
Emma O'Brien:Yeah, I recognize this one like, yeah, this is, it, is this, it is it am I? And then I think also, you know you're talking about a career pivot I'm also in the process of going from having been a full-time photographer for 20 years in wow, full-time coaching and with photography as a kind of side dish and it's it's a lot harder than it was when I started my photography business when I was 23 and I just went. I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm gonna do it anyway, I think.
Jennifer Walter:I think the 20s. Right when you're like, yes, almost too dumpy here, and you're like I.
Emma O'Brien:I kind of wish I could tap some of that. I can't, you know my perfectionism and everything gets in the way, but also, I think there's 20 years of wisdom on the top of that. That. I don't just want to create a business from the seat of my pants. I, you know, I have some strategy in place this time round, you know. But I think it's it's. There's lots of questions that have come up for me with that. Am I too old to restart a different career? Can I do it? Am I good enough? All of those, you know, we could list it, and I think that's what stops a lot of people from having a career change. Also, you've got the stability of one. I've got the stability of a photographer business that pretty much runs itself. I don't spend any money on marketing. That's brilliant, yeah, established. Yeah, it's easy to then shift it and go, go on. Am I ruining a good thing here by restarting something else?
Jennifer Walter:but oh yeah, this. This is very much a part of my internal dialogue too, of like, like, why should I like rock the boat? And at this time, just because I'm good at it doesn't mean I have to keep on doing it, that's it.
Emma O'Brien:That's it and my my pivotal point for me was actually being 41. So 40 was a miserable little birthday for me. I was miserable and horrible and I didn't like it. I didn't want to be 40. And then when I turned 41 in January of 2022, unfortunately just before that, my stepmom had been, she'd not been very well. I couldn't go home because it had been COVID and everything else. And in the month after my birthday, I finally managed to get back to the UK. So anyone listening, I'm in South Africa, um, and I'm British, but I live in South Africa.
Emma O'Brien:So I managed to get back to the UK for the first time in three years to go and see my family and I yep, I arrived back to a stepmom who was terminally ill and I'm sorry to hear thanks, it was, yeah, it was, it's it's life. I mean, it was hard, it's life, it's, it's part of being human, it's. You know, we, we love people, we lose people. And she and I had a conversation, because she was always very funny. She lied about her age for a. Really, she was 37 for a really long time, really long time, and she would always be really insistent that I didn't ever tell anybody her real age over 40.
Emma O'Brien:It was really funny and we were talking and I think she'd also had a hard time because she would have turned. She was about she would have turned 70 in 2022. And sadly she didn't quite make it. And we were talking and I said, know, my 40th birthday. I whinged and I whined and, yeah, I threw myself a party. Yeah, threw myself a pity party. Sorry, shane, poor me. And then I kind of we were talking and I said to you know, but I've, I've had a big realization that actually some people don't get to 40.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah.
Emma O'Brien:Some people don't get to 50. Yeah, and every year you get to another birthday and you're still here and you're healthy and you're well.
Jennifer Walter:You're goddamn lucky actually yeah, it's a fucking great reason to celebrate.
Emma O'Brien:It is a fucking great reason to celebrate and I'm almost looking back on it, ashamed of my inner dialogue when I turned 40. But I think it is a big birthday. It is a big birthday, you know, you kind of it's a midlife birthday and you realize that I'm actually what's the average lifespan? 75, something like that.
Jennifer Walter:You'll hit or take depending on social demographics and where you, where you live and whatever, and but yeah, exactly, you've hit the halfway point.
Emma O'Brien:And then and I think it just makes you go what, what, the hell, just how did I get how, what, how did I get here?
Jennifer Walter:yeah, yeah, and especially I think we're. There is this double-legged thing in our society where we have the disappearance of elderly people. I'm not saying 40 is elderly, right, but there is a slow. They're not elderly, no, no, no. But I mean there's a decrease of visibility once you grow older, right, I mean, we hardly see, I don't know, 70-year-olds in media. It has changed in the past couple of years a bit. It's a decrease in visibility. And especially on top of that, for women, yep, right, I mean this, this double standard of men are growing, are aging, like fine wine, and women, once they're 40, they're like old hacks or something like yes, yeah, like, oh, my god, am I now? Like, not like useful anymore, worthy anymore, like maybe I'm pre-menopausal or menopausal or gone through menopause, so I have no value anymore. Like that all comes into play too, at least for me.
Emma O'Brien:Or and then, like you know, fuck that yeah, I think you're totally right and and and it's, it's interesting, I'll, I'll bring. I think there's a great example quite recently of Sarah Jessica Parker. I, I love her um. Carrie Bradshaw is my style icon.
Jennifer Walter:I see that, I see, I see I that You're giving me Carrie season one and two like the very early, like blonde vlogs, yeah, okay.
Emma O'Brien:Seeing it. Yeah, make no excuses. There we go. And there was a picture of her and she was out for lunch with, I think is the producer of, and, just like that, he's got gray hair. He's in his 50s I think she's in her mid-50s now. I mean, the paparazzi got her a horrible angle. She wasn't wearing any makeup and she's chosen not to have any botox done and that is fair enough. That is her choice, absolutely like she said, I'm sitting with this guy who everyone's like. Oh, who's that?
Jennifer Walter:still oh yeah silver. Oh yeah the silver box. Yes, great stereotype.
Emma O'Brien:Yeah, here I am and my hair isn't even great, god damn it. But here's people saying to me oh there she's with a gray hair, look how awful she looks. And she's. I think her words were what you want me to do stop aging. I can't. And I think this is the dialogue that comes up for women with aging. Yeah, is that you're almost not allowed to do it?
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, and it's interesting, right, because we have a few very good women who hid their greatest breakthroughs later in life. I mean, I mean right now. It comes to truly. A child comes to mind. I mean she only had her cooking books like way in her 50s, I think. Um, I think also barra bang only started really designing very late or later in her life.
Jennifer Walter:So like we have these examples, but they're still just like a few every now and then, um, of doing, of pivoting, and I get right, it's coming back to what you said, like, oh man, like pivoting in your 20s was easier. And I'm like, yeah, no shit, sherlock, right, like I mean, I don't know, I was too dumb to care. It was like I had no like real responsibilities. And now I like I want to pay like the bills, I want to pay like a mortgage, I want to pay like pension funds. I have a kid. I want to like feed him, dress him like blah, blah, blah. So all of that at times feels like it's really weighing heavily on decisions to pivot or not pivot. Yeah, which, how do you go with? Like I don't know the adulting passion of pivoting? What do you like? Work like I don't know the adulting passion of pivoting. What do you like work?
Emma O'Brien:work through that with clients yeah, I think the thing with pivoting it midlife is, if you're going to start a new business, it needs some planning. So, either you need to just make sure you've got enough money saved up so that if you don't work in a meaningful way for six months which you might not if you're launching a brand new business that you've got a buffer in place so you can focus on your new project without worrying. When you're in your 20s, you just don't worry about it because, like you said, you don't have all the responsibilities, and I think also there is there a lot of people who are in a full-time job and then are building a business on the side, and that takes a lot of hard work. Yeah, but if you, which is?
Jennifer Walter:also like a great way, right? I mean, I know I couldn't do the, the business decisions I would want to make if my back's against the wall financially of course I would. I wouldn't prioritize what's really important. So, yeah, if you work in whatever capacity in a corporate environment or whatever, if you do I don't know do the checkout whatever. As long as it keeps money coming in and you giving you some space to do the things you want to do, Go right.
Emma O'Brien:Yeah, I think it just requires it's something that just needs planning and strategy in place Because otherwise, like you've said and it's a great point you've made when your back's against the wall, and what I would interpret from that is that that is a stressful situation to put yourself in you don't make good decisions when you're in a stressed out state. It's impossible You'll make impulsive decisions. You might rush into something and actually good, solid business decisions come from a calm mindset and a space of being able to reflect, weigh up the pros and cons and have a look at what are the long-term consequences of what I'm about to do. So I think it's just about it is about that planning and I think if you need help with it, get the help with it. I mean, I look at when I started my photography business in my early 20s.
Emma O'Brien:I grew up with a father who was an entrepreneur, so I had some idea of how running a small business was. I worked for him for a while, so I had a bit of business and entrepreneurial knowledge, which made it a little bit easier for me. Yeah, but I learned the hard way with various things we will do when stuff went wrong and when I, you know, I had, um, I think I was about two years into my photography business and I lost off editing that I'd photographed. Oh, um, oh yes, that was one of the most awkward conversations I have ever had to have in my whole.
Jennifer Walter:yeah, I imagine this is to be one of the hardest things as a wedding photographer, because you get one shot.
Emma O'Brien:Absolutely yeah, so that you know. But I navigated it. I navigated it and what did it teach me? Back up, Stop up, and to this day I am neurotic about backing pictures up.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, rightfully so. Right, because we've learned from something bad. Oh yeah, just feel really bad and awful and we're just yes, no, we do not want to go there again. Thank you very much absolutely, absolutely.
Emma O'Brien:But had I gone at it with a little bit more wisdom and thought it should be an obvious thing that you need to make sure you have a copy of the pictures before you wipe them anyway, I mean the obvious.
Jennifer Walter:I mean, oh god, common sense. Sometimes it's not so common. And if you're when you're in the trenches, I mean this is the great thing when, when I coach my clients and they're like in the midst of it, right, and you just sometimes all you need is someone reflecting back at you and with like an outside perspective, and people go like, oh yeah, that was I mean, that was. That's like the most like I don't know logical thing or whatever to do. Yeah, it is, but when you're, when you're all wrapped up in your old shit.
Emma O'Brien:Yes, oh, it's very hard. It's very hard to see. I think you can't see the wood for the trees sometimes. And you know, like you say, this is where having an external perspective to say, have you looked at it this way? And I'll have it with coaching clients and say, have you thought about this point of view? And you just see the moment of oh right, yes, and it's transformational, but you don't know what you don't know.
Jennifer Walter:This is very true, yeah, and I mean there's only one way to figure that out and you can figure it out by yourself. Yes, but it does take longer. It does take longer. It does take infinitely longer.
Jennifer Walter:Like, I'm curious, we talked about kind of like the existential fear that comes with change, but I find what is often I mean yes, existential fear can really keep you stuck from doing, from approaching something, but that sometimes feels like if you're sitting with yourself, that's the most obvious that comes to mind.
Jennifer Walter:You're like, oh, okay, and actually, well, I can have these backup plans, I'll do, I'll save, I'll do slowly, and I mean, if you're being honest, will you be homeless next week? For a lot of us, that will not be the case when we have certain privilege with us, um, but another thing, another layer that goes a bit deeper, is the fear of, or the fear of loss. Right, how, how do we navigate the loss of of our professional identity when we are switching careers or or um businesses who are also part of, or? I mean, if you're not, and if you're not running your own business and and if you want to like transition in your private life, there's also you also need to navigate a certain loss while you're constructing a new role, a new identity for yourself. How do you hold yourself through these processes?
Emma O'Brien:yeah, I think that's such a great question is, whenever there is change, even if it's positive change, like you've said, there's a a shedding of the, the old identity, and it's something I know I've grappled with in going from being, you know, I'm a very well, I've got a very well established. I photograph dogs. I've got a very well established dog photography business here, and all of these questions have come up for me of well, if I'm now coaching, will people think I'm not doing dog photography at all because I don't want to close the business, I just want to do it a bit differently. Yeah, yeah, am I gonna lose out? And I've had to come to terms with the fact that, yes, I am, because I'm making a choice to create a different business and run a different business model that gives me more time, freedom to come back to what I shared at the beginning of the loss of my stepmom.
Emma O'Brien:It was a really big wake up call for me. I'm on one continent, my family are on the other, my parents are on the other. Unfortunately, everybody's getting older. At some point I might need to go back for a longer period of time than two weeks and if I do, I need to have a business model that supports that, so that I'm not bankrupt and the business isn't finished as a result of it, and that's partly been a motivation for this career shift that I'm having having. But all of these thoughts have come up. What are people going to think?
Emma O'Brien:what you know if, if I'm I mean, I'm looking, I'm looking at coaching and I'm, you know, looking at where the the opportunities are. Um, I would love to get into doing some corporate coaching here of, um, you know, stress management, communication. I'm a heart math coach, so it's a really powerful tool for helping teams work more cohesively. But then at the back of my mind, the little imposter goes but what are people going to think? Because you are a dog photographer, are they going to let you into a bank to work with people? We all know that nasty voice, oh, that nasty little voice. But it's been a case of actually sitting and going.
Emma O'Brien:Okay, here are all the fears that are coming up for me, and what is it I want to do? And I know where I want to go and what I want to do, and it's just been a case of, I think, like any grieving process, of accepting that there's going to be a feeling of loss here because things are changing and I can either kind of be sucked in by that fear and stay doing the photography and say, all right, I'm going to let the fear get the better of me and I'm just going to continue as I am, or I'm going to say all right, it's inevitable that when there's a change happening, it's going to bring up stuff for me. I'm a coach, I can do the inner work on that. I can also get coached on it as well. If I need to get external support on processing through some of the stuff that's coming up for me, I can get coached and I can be brave enough to acknowledge it's going to be a bumpy journey, it's not going to be a smooth path. It's going to be Never is Never is Exactly and such that fantasies Ditch the fantasy of it being a smooth path.
Emma O'Brien:And that is okay, it's part of the journey. And knowing that everything that's happening for me along the way will make me a better coach Because as I navigate my own change, it gives me the tools and the empathy and the strategy to be able to support a client who's going through something similar. I mean, I have been through so many changes in my life. It's something that I'm pretty adept at navigating. But I think it is like you've said. There's a loss and the first bit of that is accepting that you're shedding an identity and moving into another one and it's going to be difficult, it's going to be, there's going to be upheaval and you? The only way out is through yeah I'm sorry.
Jennifer Walter:No, I know, I know, I, I said it, I, I actually I feel like you're quoting me on that. But no, I mean, I dice my all my clients go like ha, ha ha, because that's always what I tell my clients. The only way out is true. And believe me, I tried every. I tried every other goddamn possible way there could be. Do not go through. I hate to go through. I'm an enneagram 7, so basically anything that's like I'm like no, I'm gonna detour. So no detours, even though we're on a scenic route. No detours, you got to go through and so so funny.
Emma O'Brien:So I'm an Enneagram 3, hence my ability to probably just smash through things and get on with it.
Jennifer Walter:Makes sense, makes sense. Give me a slice of that. Just get on with it. Yeah, you would make a great accountability coach also. I'm sure you agree with accountability with your clients.
Emma O'Brien:Yeah, no, absolutely. I have to be mindful of the fact that not everybody thinks in the same way as I do and and it's been, it's been very interesting because I've done the, the Martha Beck Wayfinder life coaching training, which in retrospect I think you know what we're, always we're. I think we always end up in the right place at the right time with the right thing. But I don't fit into that Wayfinder mold at all because it's all about going slowly and and looking at how you feel about things and I'm like could we just get on with it please?
Jennifer Walter:Okay, so you're allowed to process your emotions, but could you process them?
Emma O'Brien:faster, no, and I think that's the thing. But I think it's taught me to just back the truck up a little bit and slow it down, because I look at it and go. You know where in my own life am I trying to bypass stuff? I mean, this career change is is is the perfect example. It has been so frustrating because it isn't going fast enough and sometimes you just have to sort of go. Do you know what? You know, things take time and it's okay for things to take time, it's okay. It's okay, it's okay to slow down slightly.
Jennifer Walter:We don't have to go 100 miles an hour, everything very true, but it's a difference between, like, our brain, our logical side, knowing this and our intuition, our body, knowing this. So how do you like bring all these three into unison?
Emma O'Brien:yeah, so that's a good question. Um, with quite a lot of self work, um, quite a lot of processing. I think for me, it's the one, the one of the things I really loved about the martha beth course was a lot of the body work, the somatic work. Oh yeah, that's always body. Yeah, and picking and and and getting in touch with your innate yes, this is a good idea. No, this is not a good idea feeling and actually really leaning into the intuition of one's own physical self, which is very, very wise.
Emma O'Brien:So it has been a brilliant, a really good exercise in slowing me down with that, and I think it's also having the awareness that of the thoughts that I'm having that are coming up, the being frustrated, this isn't going fast enough, and all of those, those, and just taking the time to acknowledge them and sit with them a little bit. Okay, so I'm frustrated, what am I going to do about that? Because I think often when we have negative thoughts like that, I'm frustrated, I'm fed up, I'm annoyed we tend to get sucked into them and get into a thought loop of how annoying this is and it's not worth yeah, how annoying everything is and how bad the world is, and I've almost had the pity party for my 30th birthday another pity party and then the imposter arrives and you, just before you know it, you're circling the drain.
Emma O'Brien:But um, so I think it's just having the self-awareness to acknowledge that that's happening and then to be able to almost observe yourself having a pity party and just say, well, this is a normal part of life, this is a normal part of navigating change. It's uncomfortable and you know, as a business owner, and this one thing that frustrates the hell out of me is you can you can take a lot of action and put a lot of energy into something, and it takes a bit of time for that to manifest into results. So this has been a real exercise in patience for me as well, and also using my heart math self-regulation tools to actually just know that if I'm feeling frustrated or fed up, I actually have a choice to feel something else and I can calm that down, and I can just calm the you know the sympathetic nervous system that's going wild. Just calm it down and actually go.
Emma O'Brien:Well, what would be a better way to approach this? Do I just need to stop for the day? Do I need to just leave this for? Yeah, I would say what's your favorite tool to self-regulate? Yeah, so. So I think the the heart math tools of um you know, I don't know how much do you know about heart math?
Jennifer Walter:not really much and let's let's put, let's say like, give us like a brief intro for anyone listening in who is not familiar with it. I know a bit because I once had a guest on who was also a HeartMath coach, so I know a bit about it. But give us a quick intro please.
Emma O'Brien:So essentially it is about using a set of tools that HeartMath has to get you in touch with your heart's innate intelligence. So our hearts have 40,000 neurons in them, so effectively they have as many neurons as some parts of our brain. So our hearts essentially think a little bit and if we can tap into that it's very useful. I mean, I would look at it. I don't know if you'd call that higher self. I've also done a couple of psychedelic plant medicine journeys, so I'm not sure that my higher self you know it resides somewhere anyway but it's a tapping into your innate intuition and your higher self wherever you can talk, like I mean, there are a gazillion different words that pick the one that resonates for you Correct Exactly that.
Emma O'Brien:So the heart math tools allow you to calm your nervous system down enough that it gets it all into. So you get into mind, heart and body coherence. So when we're calm and this is a similar I've just started reading up about vagal polyvagal theory, so it pulls into that a little bit as well. It gives a bit of a crossover. They're all people's interpretations of, I think, different ways of looking at systems.
Jennifer Walter:Take the tool or method that works for you. Try a bunch and then take the one that works for you have a look.
Emma O'Brien:So it's about calming your nervous system down so that your body and mind are performing optimally. You're not kicking out loads of cortisol, you're not kicking out loads of adrenaline. Your, your heart and everything is is is working um coherently. When that happens, we have access to be able to think more clearly, make decisions more clearly, communicate better in a different way from like a stress or flight or a free response yeah, correct, it's about bringing the system into balance so that you have the power to make more informed, better decisions day-to-day about what's happening in your life and you feel better.
Emma O'Brien:Fundamentally, when you feel better, you do, you do better, you show up better. So it's it's a system that just helps you do that, but it's something like meditation that it's a system that you need to use regularly, on a daily basis. It's not something you can go cool, I've done a hot mess tool like it's never one and done.
Jennifer Walter:Right, it's never one and done. Sorry, it's not. I know, but doesn't that like? I mean they're dead, they're days, and I mean we're all, we're human, we're we're. I mean, I think we're similar, our we're both did a lot of like self self work, work on ourselves, and we keep on doing that. We're still human. We don't want to outgrow the humanness of ourselves, and there are just days where I'm like why do I keep on doing this every day? I hear you, I thought you would.
Emma O'Brien:I thought you I hear you, I hear you, but you know what, the more, the more that you can use self-regulation tools, whether that's meditation, whether that is heart math has got a bunch of of tools that they're essentially you could, you could, I use, minus meditative practices. There's a biofeedback device you can use with heart maths. You can actually see what happens when you are choosing a positive. It's very interesting. When you're choosing a positive emotion versus when you're angry, your heart rate variability completely changes. That's their measure of coherence that they use for heart maths. So it is a very useful tool because you can actually see moment to moment, what's going on internally when you're thinking different thoughts, which is quite enlightening.
Emma O'Brien:When you think God, if you're angry all the time, you can see why it's very bad for you, not only mentally but physically. So I think it's. I'd hate to use the word self-care because it's just so overquoted, but it is about having a practice of some sort of self-care on a daily basis, because with your running a business, you're working in corporate, you're raising children, whatever you're doing, if you don't look after yourself first and you aren't regulated and calm, you can't effectively look after everybody else that you, that you are responsible for or have to interact with in the best possible way, and it just leads to stress when we're, when we're, we're not.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, okay, and you're running on an empty tank and, worst case, I I mean burnout, uh, yeah, down down a road, yep, um, yeah, this is uh. And still, when I'm kind of like looking at my, my, my, my circle and my mind of, and I'm guilty too, like I'm saying about, we realize, oh, my tank is not that full at the moment, but we still go, go, go, we still give, give, give, we still keep on doing that, although we know we should rest or we should just do something to replenish ourselves. And there are a gazillion reasons why we do the things we do and they're individual for all of us. But how can we just stop doing that pleasing everybody else and like not I mean getting? Is it in fear of if I prioritize my own needs? That I don't know I'm being seen as a narcissist or whatever? Like no, you won't. But how, how do we? How do we navigate this?
Emma O'Brien:I think it's quite a few, quite a few layers in here. I think fundamentally, and from my own experience, if you do not learn to navigate the waters of saying no, you will end up burnt out and ill. Been there, done that. It was a very unpleasant lesson to learn. The reason I became a coach was from my own experience of a how powerful it was to have someone coach me at that time, because I had no I. I was in a heap on the floor. I knew I needed to change things, didn't know what to change. I had all the same thoughts coming up, like you've said, of what will people think I, you know I'm gonna disappoint, etc. And I wouldn't want anyone to get to the place where I got to, where you don't have a choice anymore about self-care, because if you end up burning yourself out to the point of illness, you have to rest and heal your body will tell you.
Jennifer Walter:Your body will give you very clear boundaries of no, that's it.
Emma O'Brien:That's it and I think it's um. I quote it quite often when I'm talking about this. Um gabble marty's book, when the body says no is a very interesting read for anybody who is listening to this and going, oh, this resonates, and he talks towards the end of the book about weighing up guilt and resentment. So in his view, it is better to say no to somebody who asked you to do something that you don't have capacity to do and sit with that feeling of guilt that you're left with, rather than saying yes to it because you feel you should and quietly seething with resentment.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, I full-heartedly agree. It's easier said than done. Oh God, yes, but especially, I don't know, I mean especially in my journey. I know, like resentment is really one of the feelings, emotions that I experience when I am at my lowest. Yeah, so that's really one of my telltale signs of like, uh-oh, jenen, the course correct, um, this is really yeah, so, yeah, I'd rather not feel resentful yes, yes, and I agree with you.
Emma O'Brien:It also, for for me, is, uh, is is. Burnout doesn't just arrive, it leaves it, it. It leaves a set of clues along the way. It's almost like it goes. You know, I might pop in Like Hensel is grendeling through your life.
Jennifer Walter:You're like picking up the right product.
Emma O'Brien:Keep a card under your door, Tried to find you today, but you weren't here. I'm going to come back another time. I'm moving address. Yes, that's it. You know what? It'll hunt you down. It's very clever. It's the one thing I noticed. If I start to get irritated by clients just asking for normal clienty things, it's my telltale sign. Emma, there's too much on your plate here and you need to rein this in. Do you have other telltale signs? Yeah, so I think that the irritation is a big one for me. I think starting I feel this one.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, the irritation, Especially with my kid. When I get irritated at my four-year-old for asking four-year-old questions, then I'm like yes, that's it.
Emma O'Brien:So irritation with clients, feeling like I kind of don't want to go out and do something. If I get irritated with my dogs, that's another sign where I'm thinking I love my dogs, they're great, but if I'm thinking actually, just fuck off, it's not. I don't want to be like that and I know that something else is going to happen. I don't want to be like that. I need to adjust. Yes, no, and I think that I manage. That for me is my telltale sign now of me to go hang on a minute. I need to switch some things out. I need to start saying no to some things. I need to do a little bit of inner work.
Emma O'Brien:That's generally as far as it gets these days, but when I had my full burnout, it was accompanied by feeling completely pointless, feeling really teary all the time, literally kind of just thinking I hate my life. What the hell and I think we have to be careful with burnout is its symptoms? Are they cross over a lot with symptoms of depression? Very true, yes, and I think for anybody listening, because, oh, you know not if, if you're not sure, you need to go and see a doctor. However, if you can take a moment to reflect and you know your plate is overly full. You're feeling very overwhelmed and then you start to be accompanied by feelings of of pointlessness and fatigue and, you know, feeling very emotional. Yeah, it's probably a sign that you need to pull a gap and take a break and that something needs to be changed, because you will not be able to continue like that and you'll continue into hospital.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, and I mean, if that's the thing, right, there is an overlap between those things. And if you're currently listening and you're in a position of oh, I'm not really sure in which, in which, like I don't know, I feel like I'm going into in either direction, um, there are, uh like clinically, uh like clinically, questionnaires you can do online. Um, yeah, to give you you know and just an indication of um of what's going on. And, yeah, you said like the little little interest in in doing the things you used to enjoy. Oh, yeah, that's a great um indicator. Um, for me, I I would always also have.
Jennifer Walter:When I had my burnout, I had also like physical manifestations. I, I had trouble sleeping, um, or I slept like a lot, or I slept not at all. Like, yes, very weird, um, there were days when I had no appetite, or or there was, there were days when I ate everything inside just to, I don't know, feel something or whatever, like it, it, yeah, it was all over the place, like it's not one thing. So, definitely, if any of these you go like uh-oh, yeah, don't, it could also just really mean you need to see a medical professional and her act of faith starts out, of course I mean, if you feel tired, I mean the moments I felt tired and then having a doctor telling me oh, I mean your iron and magnesium is low, so no wonder you're tired. Exactly, it's just like shit, things like that, that's it. You're like okay, I need to do a bit more self-care and get more iron in or get I don't know, get hooked up on an IV or whatever. Get it done and take care of yourself.
Emma O'Brien:Absolutely yeah, and I think that's it. And I think, unfortunately, having you know, having been through full-on burnout, I would do pretty much anything to avoid ever experiencing that again. So I'm very aware of it. When it starts to slip a card under the door and goes might visit you. No, you definitely will not. So but I've also, as a result of the burnout I had, I changed my life and how I was doing my business afterwards because I'd got my just worked myself into some sort of frenzy and I had to make big changes to not allow that to continue. It's a sign, burnout. I was talking to somebody yesterday who described it, who asked me actually, the question asked was what was the greatest gift that burnout gave you? I thought it was such a wonderful question because I'd never really thought of it as a gift at all and actually in hindsight it was a pivotal moment. It made me change my life. Yeah, it was amazing.
Jennifer Walter:Even enjoy it. I mean, could there have been a more gentler lesson, like a gentler method to learn, for you to learn this lesson to pivot? Sure, but this was the one you apparently needed so possibly.
Emma O'Brien:But you know, told you I'm an enneagram three, so do we not need to go big and go hard at something I don't know? Um yeah, I'll not have to have you know. You know I'm a three, so I had to have the best burnout ever you're such an achiever.
Jennifer Walter:I love this like even achieve. If I get a burnout, then god damn. I better make sure it's the best burnout.
Emma O'Brien:There was a really good one.
Jennifer Walter:I put myself in you, congratulations oh yeah, it's, it's, that's, yeah, I mean, yeah, I do, I do have some achiever genes too and the the whole thing I sometimes have. Um, yeah, this is always uh, comes out to play when I'm like card games and shit like that. Oh yeah, go hard. Or go home like no, okay, no, you do not want to play poker with me. Like I'm a mean bitch when I play poker. It's like no, no, we just play for fun.
Emma O'Brien:Ah, no, no, no, no, no, no no, no, no, okay, no, very, very interesting, okay, it's. It's funny. I'm uh, I'm actually, I'm the I'm most competitive with myself. I think I'm not generally not, can I try not competitive with with other people? I think if I was it, I just would be even more awful. So, um, I just not, so you're just awful to yourself, just awful to myself. Yeah, no, totally part of my journey that I'm working on, you know, yeah, and then I will play games for fun. So my favourite card game probably is Cards Against Humanity.
Jennifer Walter:That is like my love it, but there's no competitiveness there. Not really, no, no, not really. Oh, yes, it's best, oh yes, oh god, yes, it's the best game. Do you know, during the pandemic, I actually set up a few rounds of online cards against humanity, um, which is random, with friends too, but also with random people I met online. It was great. That must have been fantastic. It was brilliant. It was brilliant. Maybe we should bring this back you in for an online round.
Emma O'Brien:Oh, I'm so in for a game of cards against humanity. Perfect, perfect, love it. Yay, no, we'll.
Jennifer Walter:We'll bet you win, then that's cool, like I don't get out like that. I can. Totally, no, I'm. I'm like I'm a good loser. I think I can, like it's whoa, you sure you dangerous? Spin ice, spin ice, emma. No, no, I do. I do think I'm a good loser. I don't know. I hope my partner is not hearing this podcast because he will be like I'm learning and ever so growing. Of course you are okay, emma. I could continue to spant her for like at least another hour because it's fun. See, that's the Enneagram 7 in me. We talk hard shit but we make it fun.
Jennifer Walter:Absolutely love it so people are not getting bored of us talking about hard shit. So listen, you brought us something for anyone who's listening in. You brought us something to if anyone is who's feeling like she keeps on doing the same things or nothing at all and everything feels kind of like in a rut or stuck. Do you want to tell me quickly something about it which people can download?
Emma O'Brien:Yes. So I've got a free online workshop called Seven Steps to Getting Unstuck, which you can access emmaobryancoachcom forward slash stuck, and it is a my seven step formula to help you get from a place of oh what am I doing? Don't know what to do next to having a plan for moving forward. Sometimes the hardest thing to do when you're feeling stuck is just take the first step, because we often don't know quite which direction to go in or what step to take.
Jennifer Walter:so that workshop will give you some clarity and help you get going again that sounds great and, yes, we tend yeah, we tend to think so much about it that we're kind of like, well, what is actually the first practical, teeny tiny step I can do? So, yeah, that's that surely is a super helpful resource. So where can people find you online? Is there like a social media you like to hang out? Let us know.
Emma O'Brien:So you can find me on my website, which is emmaobryancoachcom, and then I'm on Instagram, facebook and TikTok at emmaobryancoach, but I'm most active on Instagram, so if you want to connect with me, instagram is the place to do it, and sometimes there are dogs appear on there as well, so particularly Ziggy, who is I'm not allowed to have a favourite, but yeah, that's maybe is the favourite dog.
Jennifer Walter:What breed is he?
Emma O'Brien:Not that I actually know anything about dogs, but oh, I have got three town south african township dogs so they look like brown street dogs essentially.
Jennifer Walter:Um, I'm sure enough people listening in, who have a, who can picture what those dogs look like.
Emma O'Brien:I cannot, but I'm happy for you medium, medium-sized and brown and a bit indescript. But what they lack in looks they make up for in personality. Let's put it that way.
Jennifer Walter:That's the perfect way to end this book. I love it. Okay, I want that question because I asked this question to. I asked everyone this question what book are you currently reading or what audiobook are you currently listening to?
Emma O'Brien:Oh, that is a great question. So on my desk here I like to have about a million books on the go. I am reading Anchored, which is about polyvagal theory, by Deb Dana, and then I'm listening to on audible, the art of impossible by stephen kotler oh, the art of impossible.
Jennifer Walter:That sounds that is an excellent book. Oh, that sounds intriguing. It goes all on the scenic well, it goes into the show notes anyone wondering? And it also goes on the scenic route library, uh, book recommendation. So yeah, it's actually quite a good, uh, recommendation of books from guests and also my personal favorites. So if you're ever short on what to read next because your favorite series of eight part book series ended, um, this is the place to go.
Emma O'Brien:Excellent I'm I'm going to check your library out because I am, as you can see, behind me. This is just a small cross-section of e-books that I own the books for the looks, the books for the looks. I love it. Yeah, that is the one thing in life that I hoard books and shoes, and dogs.
Jennifer Walter:There's your Carrie Bradshaw coming out again, isn't she? Oh, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of shoes in my cupboard, emma thank you so much for joining me on the CineGrowth.
Emma O'Brien:It was absolutely fantastic to have you. Thank you very much for having me, Jen. What a great conversation.
