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Scenic Route
Life's one helluva ride — why not enjoy the view?
The Scenic Route Podcast is your audio chill pill, serving up mindset shifts, laughs, and 'aha!' moments that fuel your soul and your wallet.
We're all about:
- Finding purpose (without the fluff)
- Embracing the soft life (because hustle culture is so last season)
- Real talk (sugar-coating? Not around here)
- Actionable insights (for when you're ready)
- Daring convos (we go there, babes)
- Building resilience (without the toxic positivity)
- Mindfulness for real people (with real problems)
Whether you're feeling lost and emotionally exhausted, hiding from your kids in the bathroom, need a break from the chaos, or want to zen out, we've got you covered.
Join Jennifer Walter, sociologist (MASoc UCC) and pathfinder, on this journey to inner peace — with a generous side of potty humour.
Ready to care less about others' BS and more about your own bliss? Hop on The Scenic Route. Trust us, the view up here is *chef's kiss*.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Your next chill session awaits. You coming?
Scenic Route
Copywriting with Soul: How to Maintain Integrity in a Fast-Paced AI World with Naomi Greenstein
Dive deep into the evolving world of copywriting with Naomi Greenstein as we explore how to blend technology and personal touch to maintain integrity in our messaging. This episode of Scenic Route unwraps the complexities of using AI tools like ChatGPT in creative processes, revealing the importance of a copywriter's unique flair that technology can't replicate.
Naomi and I unravel the repetitive patterns of AI-generated content, emphasizing the irreplaceable value of a personal brand voice. We also get real about the ethical boundaries of marketing, sharing how we avoid manipulative tactics to foster genuine emotional connections with our audiences.
We’ll share personal anecdotes about overcoming writer's block and the limitations of using templates, providing insights into crafting messages that resonate deeply with the right audience.
Why Tune In?
- Beyond AI: Can we use AI tools while preserving the unique magic of personal copywriting flair? Let's find out.
- Ethical Marketing: Discover strategies for creating authentic connections without guilt or shame.
- Overcome Challenges: Get tips on navigating writer's block and moving beyond cookie-cutter templates.
- Cultural Touchstones: Join a conversation on how beloved stories and shows like "Girls" and "Sex and the City" influence our creative process.
Connect with Naomi Greenstein
Website
Instagram
Facebook
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Desire to find your Scenic Route? Visit jenniferwalter.me — a welcoming space for the emotionally exhausted to rest, discover, and playfully embrace inner peace. Embrace a softer, more fulfilling life today!
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Curious about what insights await you today? Dive in and let your scenic journey unfold, one affirmation at a time.
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how we use our words and how we can make the best out of the words we use. And I'm super excited to talk to a copywriter about ChatGPT, which I mean we already we talked briefly about it. I talked briefly about it with Rachel K Albers, where we both admitted that we use ChatGPT at some point. Are there instances where you, as a copywriter, naomi, also use ChatGPT or you're like ChatGPT free and you can I don't know have it as a stamp on your website?
Naomi Greenstein:I definitely. I've used it once or twice per strategy and things like that, or if I'm really struggling with how to structure an email. But I you know, I hear all the time people like training the AI to write in their brand voice. It could be that I am a copywriter, so I don't need to rely on it the same way that, you know, a business owner juggling a lot of other things might need to. But so maybe I just haven't put the time into it. I guess is my point. But I haven't gotten. I haven't found that I'm able to make it sound like me.
Naomi Greenstein:I played with it when it first came out what to see what the hype is, um, and, like I said, there's still instances where maybe I'll look and see if there's a better way to phrase um or structure an email to my list or something like that. But it's just the very overused AI language is just so recognizable and it comes up in every single thing I write. And again, I know there's ways to say I don't want to use words like that or words like this, but I think there's just something about a real copywriter who can connect with you and who can understand you and understand your audience that will always beat AI. So what are your telltale? No shade to you, no shade to people who use it.
Jennifer Walter:I'm not judging. I mean I, when I person in all the media, I want to personally connect with the people and they graciously give me the time to read my shit Like Instagram posts or emails, mostly Like I write my own thoughts. Sometimes I use chat, CBD there to be like hey, I have this idea but I'm not really sure. Like my mind needs a bit of a jumpstart to kind of like structure it or something Totally. Or I just or I free write and then I'm like this is what I free wrote. Is there a structure somewhere behind it that I don't see? Help me, so I like it for that. Or I'm shameless when I have to write stuff for like for other machines. Like I mean for, for example, I don't know um to get a very nitty-gritty um image descriptions like alt image source seo.
Naomi Greenstein:it helps me to have a starting point there, um, and I'm just like I mean, I even know designers who use that, because there are a lot of web designers who are starting to incorporate seo. You know, I call myself an seo friendly copywriter because I'm not doing the tracking or, you know, analytics review, anything like that, but I'm incorporating those keywords into my client's copy and the title text and the metas, which is crucial, and so many designers are doing that as well. And you know, making like optimizing their images on their clients websites, which is huge, um, so I've seen a lot of designers who use it for that purpose and I'm like that is kind of that's. You know, if there's not something in the budget for that, or yeah I mean it makes content accessible, especially, yeah, for small business owners.
Jennifer Walter:Um, and anything to make it more accessible, I'd say, go for it. If it's that such, if it has become a low-hanging fruit or even more of a long-hanging fruit with chat gpt. But I'm curious. You said before like oh, they're like these telltale signs that this is like made by chachi pg. What are your like main telltale signs when you go through a cop and you're like I'm not fooled, this is written by like an ai.
Naomi Greenstein:I think there's like the main ones that we all know. I just did an instagram post and a blog post about this. Um, things like you know those unleash the blah blah blah and unlock the power of this or that, and it's just, it's very indicative of ai. But there's other more subtle things throughout, just like kind of like the vague phrasing, um, and yeah, it's a little too corporatey, because usually I find a lot of the time that when I can spot AI, it's pretty clear that it wasn't edited before it was posted, wherever it was posted, or both.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, but I mean I feel that's a rookie mistake, right? I mean, if you let ChatGPT write something, at least you should edit it.
Naomi Greenstein:But I think that's the problem right now is that and this is where my clients are kind of learning this too and they're a little bit different than a lot of the folks who are relying on that, because my clients are saying things to me like you don't use chat GPT, do you? Like I don't want to sound like a robot, and so those are people who really understand the importance of messaging and having a really clear, consistent brand voice, whereas the people, I think, who are mainly using AI and really talking it up and think it is amazing, they're usually in different fields. I work with generally creative service-based businesses, a lot of who work in the digital space, so for other people who maybe aren't in fields, like my clients, they see it as perfectly fine because it looks fine from afar, but when you really get in there, you're like this doesn't really sound like anybody in particular. It just sounds like it was churning out, you know, um.
Naomi Greenstein:So I think that's where it gets tough is because a lot of what is being posted with ChatGPT isn't being edited, because it's seen by the user as like oh, this is fine, this is exactly what I want. It's simple, yeah, and so it is. It's getting easier to spot and there's just I can't fully describe it, but there's something kind of like a gut feeling where you're reading it and the little bells go off and you're like it's definitely not something that you wrote.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah yeah, and it's interesting. I just recently read that google is um, they're going against, like, all these pages that have just been like graded by ai on the mass and they're just kind of like downgrading them, um because it's not because it's not full and that's them.
Naomi Greenstein:It's not original content, I think, is the point that's being missed a lot is, you know, it's an amalgamation of all of these different pieces of content across the web that it's pulling in to give you the answers that you want, but there's nothing original about it which also asks questions of ownership.
Naomi Greenstein:Right, I mean it's from from like uh, I mean it raises a lot of questions, but ownership is definitely one of them, and copyright infringements and and yeah, so it's really, this is separate from copy, but even like the photo imaging sites that were coming out with AI yes, that was the same complaint people had is they're like this is people's work and people's styles that are being stolen to create free images for people. And it's kind of the same for ChatGPT, because obviously there's a ton of content out there, but it's being taken from somewhere, so it's ownership does really come into play with it, and that's, I think, one of the bigger issues surrounding Chet GPT. So but yeah, from a copywriter's perspective, oh yeah, I mean.
Jennifer Walter:I mean, I mean I'm not a lawyer. I assume you're also not like a hidden lawyer, no, but I mean, yeah, so I'm'm just. I mean, I don't know, I don't want to go into the depths of that, but just be mindful of it is coming from somewhere. It's not just like right, like it's, it's coming from somewhere, and that somewhere has meant at some point it was created by another human. There's not really much to wiggle about. Um, so you said, okay, um, it's very vague. Um. And then the I think the power phrase which I read countless times, especially in the coaching industry, is to unblock your power Biggie. So vagueness is one thing. So I suppose if we want to write better copy, we have to get more specific, more specific.
Naomi Greenstein:To the people that we're talking to, because even if you're working with you know people who don't all fall into one single demographic. You are talking to people who have one big problem they need to solve and that's what brings them together. Maybe it's not necessarily that they're making this much money and they're 20 years old and they like to buy coffee every day. Maybe it's that they are embarrassed by how their house looks because they don't feel like it's up to whoever's standards. I don't know. And we want to talk to that. And we want to talk to without, you know, being gross and making them feel shitty about it, because that's not, it doesn't feel authentic, it feels gross, and we don't want to work with people because they feel shamed.
Naomi Greenstein:That's like kind of a crappy way to run a business in my opinion. But it's getting specific into what that person you're trying to work with, or target with your messaging, is feeling and what they're going through and what their obstacles to working with you are right now. So specificity is really really key and that's, you know, unlock the power of whatever. It's like key and that's you know, unlock the power of whatever it's like.
Jennifer Walter:What does that even mean at the end of the day? What?
Naomi Greenstein:does it mean? And when you really break it down and make it work granular and kind of like, lose the power words, it can actually make it feel more impactful. Um, because it feels like you're talking to one person. So that's really, really important, I would say so the trick is to write.
Jennifer Walter:If you sit down, obviously always kind of think about what you actually want to say, because it feels sometimes that's so obvious. But I mean, I feel that's often that not not not happening, because I'm reading something like I'm, I'm, I'm what, what is that person trying to tell me? And I know I'm sometimes guilty of this too, because my mind jumps a lot and then I'm like this is totally like it's totally obvious why I'm jumping from this to that and everyone's like what's going on. So I feel like, yeah, having-.
Naomi Greenstein:You sound like you're on, like that's a great part of the process, though not to interrupt you, but I think that's yeah, yeah, people need to do more of that. I think a lot of folks who are sitting down and they're in the DIY stage and they're not ready to work with a copywriter, they're like, oh God, I have to make it sound like you know, someone super professional wrote this, and so they're trying to fit it into these very, very tight parameters of like this is what it should sound like. And it's like, if you just kind of brain dump for a while and then dig through, um, that's really what copywriting is, is you're? You're taking little bits and pieces that have worked and you're putting them together in a new way. Um, it doesn't always have to be so like I have to follow this exact formula.
Naomi Greenstein:Sometimes it's just let me brain dumb, get all we should have like the copy, the copywriting template formulas, where you just have to replace the word x by whatever you want to sell, which some of those are really, really great I you know, I know a lot of copywriters who have those and they are so helpful but for people maybe who aren't in a position to buy those or purchase them, I think, starting with that kind of brain dumping thing and making that your process, finding those little bits that stick out to you of like I feel like this would resonate with someone you know, because, again, not to knock the templates the templates are amazing.
Naomi Greenstein:People have so much success with them, but not everybody's in a position to take advantage of them, unfortunately. So allowing yourself to just sort of look onto a page and then pull out what you think is going to work is a great start, truly what you think is going to work is a great start.
Jennifer Walter:Truly, what I a part of my process is what I'm really like at the early stages I do I just talk it to my phone and then leave like let author or some transcriber and I run over it. Just because I know there is such a huge difference when I talk to when I write and I know people resonate more with when I talk. This is why I have a podcast. But like, yeah, I mean figure out what kind of works for you. But I mean I know, like I mean when I um, I mean I'll soon be in the process of redoing my website um, when you're starting with such a big project like your website, it feels very daunting and it's kind of like where do you where to even like start with getting the first, the first kind of words out there and like almost kind of like the writer's blog. It doesn't probably matter if you want to write a novel or like a Web page or an Instagram post. It probably can happen, always like the scare of the blank page. Yes, how you work with that page.
Naomi Greenstein:Yes, how you work with that, that's something that I actually talk about on my website. Funny enough, as I talk about that kind of impending doom of the blinking cursor and it feels like it's just taunting you and making you feel bad and making fun of you. The blank page is making fun of you. So I think, finding the research first, but then building the strategy For me as a copywriter, I'm not just coming in and working off of the mock-ups from a designer.
Naomi Greenstein:I'm creating a strategy from scratch, because it's really hard to design around something when you don't know what you're selling and you don't know where things need to be placed. So I just had this amazing project with a wedding imitation designer, and even a couple weeks ago I worked with a soon-to-be travel agent who is starting off with a blog right now. And each of those have to start with strategy. Otherwise, one of them is she's selling products and services, the other one is trying to connect with an audience through a blog. They both have such different strategies and that's where we start to figure out where the flow comes in. I even think back to my master's dissertation. The first thing that I did is I took those 8 by 11 pages of, you know, printer paper. I wrote down every single chapter down that I would plug in my sources, I would plug in main ideas and themes, and it was kind of just filling in the blanks after that oh, it did not work like this.
Jennifer Walter:I mean, what was your master citations?
Naomi Greenstein:on. Mine was in. Uh, oh, what was it on?
Jennifer Walter:yeah it.
Naomi Greenstein:Mine was on um fight club. I talked about Fight Club and the Canterbury Tales a little bit, but Gawain and the Green Knight and how toxic masculinity has. You can kind of trace it throughout literature and history and it started in the Knights of the Round Table. It was a lot. I'm intrigued. Okay, yeah, it was very interesting. There's just there's a lot of similarities once you dig into it because you didn't go in and that's why I want to do an episode of that too.
Jennifer Walter:That sounds very intrigued, very, very nice, very nerdy.
Naomi Greenstein:I'm into it oh yeah, it was very nerdy, a long summer of writing, but even that, even my dissertation started with mapping the whole thing out, because once it's, once the website or the sales page or whatever is fully mapped, you're kind of just filling it in with the copy, which sounds easier than it is, I think, but it does make it substantially easier I guess I, I guess so, and it shows the difference between a pro-copywriter and just someone who happens to write copy.
Jennifer Walter:Like what Chapter? Like I mean, yeah, I had to do basic chapter outlines because that was requested to hand in my dissertation, but I'm like no, I just kind of like I't know, I free wrote first and then kind of like, okay, no, this needs to go there and there but working well.
Naomi Greenstein:Now I need to know what your dissertation was on, can we?
Jennifer Walter:oh yeah, I even have it here. I can show we're a little. We have to do this ridiculous thing of actually binding it in like a real ass fucking thing. I have mine too. No, is this an Irish thing, I'm wondering. So I wrote it on. Okay, behold, I pull out all the stops for the title. It sounds impressive. A comparative visual framing analysis of the Republic of Ireland and the Swiss Confederation.
Naomi Greenstein:A comparative visual framing analysis of the Republic of Ireland and the Swiss Confederation, unraveling the complex relationship between tourism, national and cultural identity and place branding. I think we should trade.
Jennifer Walter:I think we should trade. Mine was blue and I also use gold font, by the way. So, great minds, yeah, that is hilarious, hilarious, and I did. I did the whole thing, um, based on postcards from the 19 I think 1910 was the earliest until like 2000s, from switzerland and ireland that have been sentenced, and then kind of like looked at all those and the differences, um, in portraying cultural identity. Wow, that is very cool.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, we need to. Yeah, yeah, from yours, I'm gonna send you a pdf of mine. Let's do that, okay. I mean, yeah, bear with us, we're still here, we're still, we're still doing talking copy. But but basically, I mean, we gotta yeah, we gotta find a process that works for us. Um, and there are different ways of doing it and we both handed in our shit. We had to hand in. So, whatever works, you do it, true. I'm curious when, like you're working, like you're taking a new project or what is the thing you wished, people would tell you in the briefing. So, whenever you're listening in and thinking of sourcing out your copy to a pro, what are the things people need to have in place before it actually kind of makes sense to work with a copywriter? What they know. What would you ideally know before you got?
Naomi Greenstein:before you put your pencil to work. Yeah, so the biggest thing and what I have actually had to unfortunately turn down, uh, you know, working with clients because of is you know if you're missing who your audience is like, you don't know who you're talking to, you don't know what their big goals are and what they really need from you, because some people have these great offers but they haven't really nailed down why it's that helpful and why it's a must for people. And in a really competitive industry, like some of the people I work with like coaches, like website designers, like people who design wedding invitations you need to really define what you offer and why it's different from anybody else. So no one makes you unique, but having an offer as well. You know someone that I turned down working with lovely, lovely dude, but this was a couple years ago. He just had so much going on um on his website. He basically had three different, three or four different websites, um, and he was just speaking to a lot of different people. He did, you know, financial work, but then he did um a little bit of coaching as well, wealth management type of stuff and products and services that didn't really make sense because they would target people who needed the services, but then they would also target people just starting out in wealth management, even though he didn't want to coach. So it was really really tough for me to even figure out where I would start with the strategy, because he just seemed like he had a lot going on and I'm not a person who's going to waste someone's time or investment if I don't think I can do a good job based on what that client might have at the moment. So, yeah, so again, I had to turn him away just temporarily until he kind of refined his audience and his offer suite a little bit further.
Naomi Greenstein:Um, but those couple of things are are really really crucial. Um, because you know, I can't read your mind. I wish I could. At the surface it would be fake. Yeah, so I real that's like the information that I need to write super informed copy that's going to resonate with the right people and make you money. That's. You know, we want to sell your services in an ethical way, but we want to make it. You know we wanted to help you build a really sustainable business that brings in the right people so what in that I'm glad you brought it up ethical marketing.
Jennifer Walter:What does that mean to you? What do you understand by ethical marketing?
Naomi Greenstein:You know, and you and I have talked about this at length, but kind of what people nowadays have dubbed like the real marketing or mean real marketing, it's just the kind of A pro-marketing.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, help me all.
Naomi Greenstein:All the too much testosterone, like I can't it's just the kind of marketing, really, where you, like we mentioned earlier, where you're using these kind of false pressure tactics or shame and guilt to write kind of, you know, manipulative messaging that just makes people feel shitty, um, and it's what people have come after the beauty industry and the fashion industry for for years, is it's, you know, profiting off of making people feel like they're not good enough just by themselves?
Jennifer Walter:um, and that's that there's an outside solution, like if you buy this coaching program, everything will be solved.
Naomi Greenstein:You'll unlock your power unlock your power and it's just like, kind of like the dangling of the carrot that, yeah, you're never going to get. Um, and I even find myself, you know, falling into it sometimes and it's like the shiny object syndrome and we all just have to like pull ourselves out of it and be like we don't need this crap. That's not the way to sell. And you know there's I think her account is called why Don't you Say Something? But she's a woman on Instagram who I believe she's a nurse I hope that I got that right.
Naomi Greenstein:She actually left the coaching industry to pursue health care and she talks now about how, having been in the coaching industry for such a long time, she's really, you know, seen how toxic and like the kind of just icky tactics that they use. Um, and it's just really interesting to see because you'll come across it in their copy, in their messaging, not just on their website but in their instagram, and how they're talking directly to the camera and it just it really alienates people more than it's, you know, makes them feel comfortable with you. So a lot of good tactic.
Jennifer Walter:I have a kind of like an intermezzo, but I want to talk about this more. But you just said like the book or no, not the book? The Instagram account. Why Don't you Say Something that reminded me of? I just recently read hey Hon by Emily Paulson. I don't know if you know it's um, it's hey hon is um the.
Jennifer Walter:The subtitle is like oh uh, sales, sisterhood, uh supremacy and the other lies behind multi-level marketing and she has been um an mlm marketer like really, really successfully, and she kind of like goes into what happened behind the scenes, like all the culture and how they were like worse to communicate and it was really like making you feel ick the whole time.
Jennifer Walter:So, anyway, if you're listening in and you maybe watched a Lula Rich documentary, that book should be next up on your reading list because it's really really good. Um so and matzo concluded, going back to the like what you said, oh, sometimes I I realized myself oh shit, no, no, I'm reacting because of some of those pain point marketing triggers and I mean it's same right and and that's why like this stuff or all these like pain point marketing and false scarcity and like download timers and all that shit, I mean it's based on, on psychological principles, like we are wired in a way to react on those, and that's what why they're so successful. Um, so never feel bad? Um about it, because people use it purposely to make you bad, to get you, and you're just human, that's all you're. That's all you're guilty of. You're being human, like yeah we.
Naomi Greenstein:It's again, it's like the dangling the carrot and there's, there's ways to, you know, address fear and address objections and things like that without making people feel gross about it and like they're doing something wrong or they're screwing up somehow. I have a client who you know I shared a couple of things about a new fight who launched and I had other clients kind of coming in and just I really was feeling the love. A lot of them flooded my inbox and were, you know, giving a lot of offering, a lot of praise for the work that I've done for them and the messaging we've worked together to create. And one of them mentioned to me I have a line in her website that says erratic, misaligned strategies have no place here. And she, you know she's a brand consultant but a lot of people she said to me have commented on it how much they love it.
Naomi Greenstein:Because that is a huge fear, it's a huge objection people have before working with someone like my client because they have seen so many misaligned strategies that feel very erratic and feel very like, you know, non, like they don't make sense and they don't fit the brand or the goal or whatever. So addressing that up top of being, we don't do that here. It's a way to touch on that pain point a little bit, without really sticking the knife in and making people feel, without adding shame, right Like yeah.
Naomi Greenstein:Yeah. So there's, there's ways to do it, but the other way does it does sell, but it's not always that big.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, that's the the big turn I feel there's more and more of a shift where I feel more people are becoming aware, or at least like in my bubble, or an hour in your bubble, probably too, because probably I will make a similar bubble um, where people are like realizing what these certain I don't know copy style of copywriting does to them and like how they feel at like uneasy when they write, when they read certain copy, or how they're suddenly like I don't know etching on their seat, or just how they, how their body reacts. Yeah, they're like, no, fuck this shit, not here for it. So do you and I think that's, and do you see that too? Or is it just my wishful?
Naomi Greenstein:thinking no, I do see it a lot more and I see a lot of marketers in the space that I'm in, on instagram, specifically, kind of calling out that very like predatory behavior, um, especially as pertains to copy and messaging, um, and just general you know, brand communication, things like that.
Naomi Greenstein:And I love it because it's like, yes, listen to your body. And that's like the advice that I would give anybody who feels like they kind of fall into that trap, a lot of like oh, I wish I could afford this coaching program or I wish I could afford this product that maybe I don't really need right now and listen to the way, listen to how you know your body and how you feel and how you are reacting, because that cringy type of, you know, manipulative messaging it's being done intentionally, yeah, and you know we're all out here running businesses. We all have, you know, things to share. But the difference is is that you know, know the people that I'm working with, we're not pushing it on people. We're offering this to people who are the right fit, versus shoving something in somebody's face that maybe that's not the right fit for them, maybe they're not supposed to, kind of like close the sale, or say that again just to kind of close the sale.
Naomi Greenstein:Whatever like, by all means just as large a sale whereas, like you know, if you really focus on like, this is the kind of person I want to work with, I'm not really going to change my um parameters around that. That's when selling also gets so much easier because it doesn't feel like you're it's being thrown at all these different people, yeah, who again may or may not benefit from in any way if they're not the right fit um, it's not in their budget, you know we, so really it's. It's a tough trap to fall into um. So, yeah, just writing ethical copy that's very sincere and genuine is the way to go.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, it touches on the genuine part where I feel a lot of people struggle with in the, in the sense of they may get more complicated than it needs to be. I think that's the whole buzz around like authenticity, right, if you're playing bullshit, marketing bingo, this is now where you can go like bingo. Um, how, how do you approach um this topic of?
Naomi Greenstein:I'm sure it comes up, everybody says it and it's of course we want people to know us and that comes with you know. Just to give you an idea of like my process as a copywriter, I of course, just like many others, have a brand questionnaire. It is a bit of a bear, but it's how I help write really great copy for my clients. But a lot of questions in there about their audience, their goals, their experience, their skills, what they bring to the table, why they're different. And I have a full section too, just like asking them questions about themselves. What do you like to drink in the morning? When you get up, what's the first thing you're doing? Tell me about your routine throughout the day. What can I find you doing on a saturday night?
Jennifer Walter:and it tells me a lot about who they are as a person, so that I can incorporate those details and tell their story so you're like an example of you know last time you went clubbing or the last time you played scrabble in front of the television in your pajamas yes, you know, because I it.
Naomi Greenstein:There's somebody who is the very outbowing type and they're always, you know, they're staying up late, waking up super early for a corporate job, versus somebody who maybe lives a more slow kind of they want to live very intentionally. But I also always tell my clients that I want to talk about who you are. Obviously, it can't be all about the clients on their websites. We need to still make it about their clients clients to be authentic as well and to feel comfortable knowing that, like this is just another human. Then I work. I had a client just say to me she's like we're not doing brain surgery out here, and it was the best thing I had heard all week because she was totally right. It's like doesn't need to be so intense. It doesn't need to be so intense, it doesn't need to be so stressful. We're just humans, yeah, trying to help each other out.
Jennifer Walter:I don't want that to sound too like hippy dippy, whatever, but no, but it's true, right, I mean, I especially, I always like, I like, when I do brands, it's always the thing you always have to start with is the person who owns the brand and, yes, there has to be aspects of it for the potential client, otherwise you're not going to make a single sale.
Jennifer Walter:But I feel it has to start with you and because I've seen it often that people have this super polished brand or copy and it's not them and I'm glad you kind of wrench it out into a bit of the wooey territory, wrench it out in a bit of the wooey territory. But if, if, if you have jachi pd bright for you and it kind of like gives you like the I don't know something is kind of off I. It feels the same if you hire like a super, like, a super polished copywriter that maybe, like, from a technical point of view, crafts perfect copy, but yeah, you have not, let's say, the energetic capacity to back it up, I feel there's also like this disconnect like there is and that's it's.
Naomi Greenstein:yes, it's funny you say that, because consistency, too, is very important, and I you know it's full circle. I had a post also recently about catfishing.
Jennifer Walter:I did not Every single post you put out, I'm sorry.
Naomi Greenstein:All I can say this is my very good prep process, which is not but yeah, but I mean you make a great point, though, of being consistent and being who you are, and again, I'm not the copywriter for everybody and I, again I work with you know creative service providers.
Jennifer Walter:I'm not the person for a very like very handful of people so, but it's fine.
Naomi Greenstein:I'm not working with, like people in the manufacturing industry or, you know, medical, necessarily, health and wellness is one thing, but you know very like corporate, like pharma, medical type things. I'm not doing that because I do want to work with people who just have the kind of business where we can show their audience who they are and let them be a little bit more real, which is not always possible when you do have a very corporate brand. That makes total sense. But, yeah, consistency is key and that's why I never start a project without getting on a discovery call with a person and then we have a kickoff call once we've decided to work together as well, because I need to know who you actually are.
Naomi Greenstein:I need to know what you sound like, what your voice is like, how you communicate some of the words or phrases that you use typically, because that's how we make sure that when people do see your website and they're like, oh my God, I have to work with this girl, and then they book a call with you, they're not shocked by the person who shows up on the Zoom call, you know, because that's also kind of a jarring experience when you're like I was expecting this person, yes, yes, I mean, I'm getting this, you know expectation, but just have the game Like yeah, we have to. It does need to be true to who you are, because you're working with people in real life, whether it's in a physical or digital capacity, you are communicating with these people and they need to know that, they need to feel confident that you are who you say you are. So, um, you know writing messaging that's really consistent um to who you are and what you value and what you're like as a person. It's just, it's huge for creating trust.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, absolutely. And especially also thinking about the consistency, has two ways to look at it right. One is the consistency across platforms at it right. One is the consistency across platforms, like yes, I mean if. Or the consistency if I'm, then if I read your copy and then hear you talk and it's like what, wait, what, what, who is that? Um, but also just the consistency in terms of you putting out content. I mean, you may or may not be on social, like this doesn't has necessarily to do Instagram, but you have to make some sort of marketing for your business, whatever. It is Right. And I find when you just like, you have a hard time when it's just empty words. Right, there might be brilliant empty words, words, but they're not yours. Yeah, that it's hard for you.
Naomi Greenstein:Or I've seen in my clients too that it's hard for them to keep up, just to keep creating content because it's just because you're kind of writing for like a facade you're writing, it feels like you're writing for someone who is totally different for you, whereas when I have a friend who we've been friends since college, we chat every single day and she's always saying to me, whenever she reads my emails or my social posts, she's like I always hear your voice in my head, saying it out loud, because she's like I just know you so well and this is how how you write, is exactly how you speak and it's. I've had clients who you know that's a great compliment said that I like that, but it's really a testament to again like how it creates trust and creates genuine connection when you're showing up as yourself and to your point too, too, it does make it easier to create content when you're just like this is who I am, this is how I'm showing up. So definitely, um makes your job easier.
Jennifer Walter:I would say yeah, I guess, absolutely so. How? Okay? So anyone who's? Who's thinking now like, oh, okay, um, I'm intrigued, I, I want to work on my copy again or I'm ready to outsource what are. Oh no, this has actually this is. Oh, now I'm going into, want to want to know something different. Okay, who in like the online space, maybe on Instagram or wherever? Like, who are the people in your opinion who do copy really really well? Like, who do you look to for inspiration? Do copywriters look for inspiration?
Naomi Greenstein:I know designers do like I do, but we definitely do. I don't follow a ton of other copywriters and you know full disclosure, just because me neither. Me neither like it. Just no, yeah, I feel like it kind of. For me it becomes a little bit of like an echo chamber and I'm seeing a lot of the same. So I follow a lot of designers and things like that. But, um, I just I do a lot of research at the start of every project and that's like, besides the actual copywriting, that is the most time consuming part for me, because I am looking at this place and that place and this website and this sales page.
Naomi Greenstein:Um, because, like we discussed before, copywriting really is pulling together little bits and phrases that have been successful and making them into something that is totally new. It's not always having to like reinvent the wheel yeah, he's in that phrase, but it's appropriate here. It's not always having to like totally start from scratch. It's okay, this really worked, um, in this ad campaign or on this website, and how can I make that work in a different way that suits my client and this audience? So it's just a ton of research and writing and rewriting in every copy document. I have like here's one heading and then I have a comment with like heading variation two, heading variation three, heading variation four, and I just look at them and I piece them together and then I take this out and it's just like a big puzzle of finding what fits and what works for the final results.
Jennifer Walter:So I like that as a. I've never really considered this approach. I really like this approach of kind of putting the puzzle pieces together.
Naomi Greenstein:It's a lot of like piecing out loud. It's a lot of for me personally, reading it to my husband and having him tell me oh yeah I get that.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, I'm still want to like pickle it out of you. Who, who you're like, who you know, who always like consistently brings that great copy, like who, who you think does a job really really well. Is there one in particular you can think of trying?
Naomi Greenstein:to think I really again, because of because I just don't follow that many, it's hard for me to pull it, yeah, out of my head. That's fine, um, but I see even designers and agencies who I feel like have great copy. Um, tonic, am I gonna name one? I would say, actually, tonic, um, they do show it, show it, yeah, yeah, they do show a templates. And I forget, I I don't know if they work with a copywriter who is a contractor or they're you know know, a permanent fixture on the team, but I get their newsletters and everything too, and I just like I love everything in it. I love their templates. I'm a Squarespace girl myself, so I haven't used one of their templates, but they're beautiful and the copy is just like awesome. I actually do have a couple of copywriters I've connected with more so on LinkedIn, and a few of them are pretty great as well. But yeah, I really follow a lot of other like designers, mainly creative service providers, so but yeah, tonic, I think, has really great stuff. Well, shout out to Tonic.
Jennifer Walter:So but yeah, I mean really the echo chamber. But yeah, I mean it's really tough, the echo chamber, I don't know, on bad days I get mopey and feel sorry for myself when I have too much of what everyone else and I think it's kind of like diluting what I think and what I want to say and what I want to put out into the world.
Naomi Greenstein:I think it's also really hard to not fall into like the comparison trap, which I think is what you're kind of getting at too. Yeah, like too, yes, I'm not totally there yet, or I'm not this, and it's just. You know, for me I've learned that like kind of removing a lot of that is very helpful for me to just keep on the track that I need to be on and make sure that I'm focusing on myself.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, that's key. That's a very good kind of like closing word, just like focus on yourself, which is it's so true, right, like we always, I don't know. Going back to what we said about the copy has to be about you too. And back to there is no outside solution like there are, like you always carry part of the solution, at least a part of solution which you like. There's no outside quick fix or anything um. So yeah, those are really beautiful like closing call words. You know you're not a thing with words. So there you go. I I totally believe the the copyrighted thing, so you're not catfishing me. That's great, okay. So if people now we tell me, if people want to like read um more of your copy or want to work with you, where can they find you?
Naomi Greenstein:yeah, so you can find me on my website. It it's GlossHouseMediacom and that's gloss with one S, because it means green it's an Irish word for green, so you can find me on. You knew that. Oh, you can find me on Gloss House Media. I write a lot on my blog there. I am on Instagram, sometimes sporadically, trying to make that more consistent, as we talked about, but you can follow along with me there and yeah and we're also going to link something you bring in with you today 10 ways to make more money with your website.
Jennifer Walter:Do you want to quickly tell me something about it?
Naomi Greenstein:sure, it's just a. It's a super quick guide for people who just want to figure out and make more money with your website how to maximize your website's money-making potential. It's a very quick guide. You can go through it in five to ten minutes, probably even less than that. Just ten quick tips with what you can look for on your own site to figure out maybe if there's something holding you back from getting more of the right conversions that you want to get. There's a little bit about SEO in there, about user experience, some copy tips as well, but just some things to look out for to give you a quick and easy way to start optimizing your website, you know give you a quick and easy way to start optimizing your website.
Jennifer Walter:That's a great. We're always for the easy peasy stuff. I make the health unnecessarily hard.
Naomi Greenstein:I agree.
Jennifer Walter:So last question before I let you off the hook what book are you?
Naomi Greenstein:currently reading, or what audio book are you currently listening to? Oh okay, so I'm a big podcast girl actually, so always listening to podcasts like giggly squad, I just really I I need something that's fun and makes me laugh. Um, I was listening to a gilmore girls podcast. I was listening to a podcast about girls the hbf show oh, I, I remember that one that's.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, it's. I think it's just called out that one in the wild rewatch.
Naomi Greenstein:It was they like go through each episode. I don't know if anybody has a girls fan, but I love that show. I know they're all very toxic and awful, but it's a very good show nonetheless I love stuff like that.
Jennifer Walter:I've watched it when it first aired, but I haven't re-watched it and it's curious how it sits now, because I mean some, if you re-watch sex in the city now, parts of it are like no which they talk about that too, about how these shows kind of fit into how we, you know, operate and the values that we all have today.
Naomi Greenstein:So it's, uh, very interesting oh, okay.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, I'm trying to find that. Otherwise, you have to send me the link, because I want to ask you like maybe I should rewatch girls.
Naomi Greenstein:Okay, now I know what I'm going to do the rest of my evening, yeah okay, I think, as to answer your other question, to answer what I'm reading um, there's a book it's only my second time reading it, but it it's called I think it's the Unraveling, or maybe just Unraveling by Elizabeth Graber, and it's actually a copy that my mom gave to me for Christmas one year when I was in school. I think I was in Ireland that Christmas so I took it back with me, took it back with me, um, and it's just, it's a very like beautiful story. It's like happy cry, sad cry, happy cry. Um, so it's like, yeah, a little bit, but it's uh, the writing is just amazing. So I I needed to read it the second time so I I love when you said I.
Jennifer Walter:I'm almost kind of like I'm apologetic. I'm like this is only the second time I'm reading it. I'm like, girl, how many times are you rereading books?
Naomi Greenstein:I used to read the Great Gatsby every summer. I don't know what's wrong with me. I read the Glass Castle about 15 times. I have like I'm a weird humper rereader, re rewatcher. I watch the same shows over and over, so which shows.
Jennifer Walter:I do have that too, like it's a comfort thing, right, because when you're like calling um, and now I feel bad because I've never read the glass castle once I saw one.
Naomi Greenstein:It's it's a really, really tough. It's kind of it's tough in some parts, but it's uh very rewarding cool.
Jennifer Walter:So that's okay. So I'll link. Okay, we're gonna link that in the show notes too, because that's gonna, because it's all going up on the scenic route, kind of like book recommendation. So whenever you finished um rereading the glass castle for the 16th time, you can go there and find something else. That's right. We have also fiction and nonfiction. We do both. Well, I'm not, I'm going to use that. So, naomi, thank you so much for being on the CineGround with me. Thank you for having me. This was so fun.
