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Scenic Route
Life's one helluva ride — why not enjoy the view?
The Scenic Route Podcast is your audio chill pill, serving up mindset shifts, laughs, and 'aha!' moments that fuel your soul and your wallet.
We're all about:
- Finding purpose (without the fluff)
- Embracing the soft life (because hustle culture is so last season)
- Real talk (sugar-coating? Not around here)
- Actionable insights (for when you're ready)
- Daring convos (we go there, babes)
- Building resilience (without the toxic positivity)
- Mindfulness for real people (with real problems)
Whether you're feeling lost and emotionally exhausted, hiding from your kids in the bathroom, need a break from the chaos, or want to zen out, we've got you covered.
Join Jennifer Walter, sociologist (MASoc UCC) and pathfinder, on this journey to inner peace — with a generous side of potty humour.
Ready to care less about others' BS and more about your own bliss? Hop on The Scenic Route. Trust us, the view up here is *chef's kiss*.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Your next chill session awaits. You coming?
Scenic Route
Embrace the Unknown: Why Certainty is Overrated in Personal Transformation with Jessica Ell
Are you feeling stuck because you're afraid to make the "wrong" choice? Do you find yourself paralyzed by the need for certainty in your life decisions? What if embracing uncertainty could be the key to unlocking your true potential?
In this illuminating episode of The Scenic Route Podcast, host Jennifer Walter sits down with Jessica Ell, a Martha Beck-certified life coach specializing in helping people make hard decisions. Together, they explore the power of embracing uncertainty in personal growth and decision-making.
Key topics include
- The difference between clarity and certainty in life choices
- How family dynamics and societal expectations shape our decision-making
- Techniques for trusting your intuition and overcoming fear-based decisions
- The importance of willingness in facing life's challenges
- Finding joy and purpose beyond traditional success metrics
Key Takeaways
- Clarity, not certainty, is what you need to move forward in life
- Fear often disguises itself as practicality or responsibility
- Trusting your intuition is a skill that can be developed and strengthened
- Embracing non-linear paths can lead to unexpected growth and fulfillment
- Past regrets can be valuable data for making better future decisions
- Consistency is only valuable if it's aligned with what truly brings you joy
- Sometimes, the "good-on-paper" choice isn't the right one for you
Jessica shares invaluable insights on navigating life's crossroads, particularly when walking away from "good-on-paper" opportunities. She emphasizes the transformative power of embracing the unknown and trusting your inner guidance.
Whether you're facing a major life decision, feeling stuck in your career, or simply curious about personal growth, this episode offers practical wisdom for embracing uncertainty and living a more authentic life.
Join us for this thought-provoking discussion and discover how stepping off the beaten path can lead to unexpected personal transformation and fulfilment.
Connect with Jessica Ell
Website
Instagram
Her podcast Ill-Advised with Jessica Ell
Dive deeper
Hard decisions and fear of future
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Desire to find your Scenic Route? Visit jenniferwalter.me — a welcoming space for the emotionally exhausted to rest, discover, and playfully embrace inner peace. Embrace a softer, more fulfilling life today!
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Okay. So in this episode of the Scenic Route, we're diving deep into our relationship with the unknown and letting go and just reopen our life's mysteries. Together with my guest, Jessica, I will explore how leaps of faith can lead to unexpected magic and why having clarity trumps certainty every goddamn time. So tune in as we challenge the status quo and learn why sometimes the bravest thing you can do is simply move. So you ready? Let's go? Hi and welcome to the Scenic Rou podcast, where we believe in embracing life's journey with purpose, curiosity and a bit of potty humor. someoneCool Cool Mom, and I'm always looking out for that perfect slice of gluten-free rhubarb pie. Every week, I get the joy of sitting down with dreamers and doers who dare to take the road less traveled in pursuit of their own magic. Together, we dive into the inspiring stories of soulful entrepreneurs and visionary leaders who boldly share their beliefs, lessons and fuck-ups. Excited, so am I. You're exactly where you're meant to be, and now let's take this conversation off the beaten track.
Jennifer Walter:Jessica Ell is a Martha Beck-certified life coach who specializes in helping people make hard decisions. She is especially interested in the good-on-paper things we choose to walk away from and the loneliness of ambivalence and reluctance that often accompanies these choices, even when they feel spiritually aligned. Jessica, welcome to the Cineground podcast. Hi, thank you for having me. This conversation today feels very timely. We have big like astrological shifts coming up next year and it's just like it feels the energies are a bit wild. So it feels really cool to talk about, um, kind of like the relationship we have with faith and, uh, kind of like the mystery of the unknown and when, just kind of like rip off the band-aid where you're at currently, Jessica, do you feel like energy wise? Is this like something that's going on for you too?
Jessica Ell:I yes, the short answer is yes, and also I feel like I have been in this state for so long, this state of I don't know what's happening, and I have. I am a Capricorn sun, so Pluto kind of going in and out of Capricorn. For, however, the last 12 months I don't know how long it's been yeah that it's been transitioning out, but I have certainly felt the heaviness of that and and then also the lightness when it goes into a period and it comes back and I'm a cusper, I'm like the last day of Capricorn, and so I I always kind of exist on that threshold of what's now and what's next and I'm constantly kind of toggling between those two energies.
Jennifer Walter:Girl same, and it's always interesting when I'm like in a position of, oh, I don't really know how to move forward or what could be the next step, but I know what I don't want.
Jessica Ell:Yes, yes, I talk about that all the time because I almost never know. I almost never know where I'm going, but I'm very good at saying well, I know it's not that, I know it's not this, not that I know it's not this. And that's actually when I first got into coaching. I hired someone and I or I joined a group program. And this was during COVID and my ex-husband and I had split up right before COVID. Like I moved into my own apartment the day before the lockdown started in the U? S and in June maybe it was in May I signed up for a coaching program and the first question that she asked was what do you not want anymore? And I was like, oh, thank God someone is asking me a useful question and not just asking me what I want, because I'm like I don't know. I don't know what I want, but I know what I don't want.
Jennifer Walter:I'm pondering this question for myself and with my clients so so many times and I'm truly torn about it, Like curious to hear your thoughts. I'm like, yes, I feel it's very helpful to know what you don't want so you're not repeating certain things, but at the same time it's often feel I often feel like I'm missing the purpose and the clarity that comes with knowing what you want and like actively, like moving towards that instead of going away from something.
Jessica Ell:Yeah, yeah, does that make sense? It does. There's such a tension, and especially because we're just like bludgeoned with this idea that we need to know all the time, right.
Jennifer Walter:But I really do like to know though.
Jessica Ell:Of course we do, of course we like to know. I would love to know, and I have simply had to make peace with the fact that I don't, the fact that I don't, and, and that said, I think that there is a lot of clarity that comes as you are moving and as you are encountering life. I don't know if you're into human design at all, and I know that's not we weren't going to talk about.
Jennifer Walter:Well, I mean, we can, I'm a, I'm a five one projector.
Jessica Ell:Okay, okay, and I'm a three, five um generator. Oh okay, we got interesting energies. So I mean, at least for me, I and I have a total. I have an open g center. So I don't know, do you have an open?
Jennifer Walter:g. Um, I know she's that entity, right, that's the. That's one of my only defined ones.
Jessica Ell:Okay, okay because everything else is like split up. In that regard, at least you got a sense of direction well, I got a sense of self.
Jennifer Walter:So I know, if I'm kind of like focusing on on me, that things will work out in my favor, as long as I'm kind of like true to my values and what I want, which is different in a whole lot of ways. But yeah, things define G-Center.
Jessica Ell:So how do you use that then? You know, since you always know who you are. How do you use that then to kind of navigate, even if you don't know exactly where you're going?
Jennifer Walter:Because I could see that as being a tremendous asset in terms of a compass um it is, um, I reframe it in the sense of I don't ask myself what do I need right now. So I know from experience that I'm better at life in general, at making smarter decisions, being kinder, being more tuned to my values, etc. When I'm feeling good. So when I'm rested, when I don't fill my body with shitty foods not labeling food, shitty foods but like just balanced, like all these little little things I know will contribute. So I, if I, if I say okay, I have just reframed to what do I need, and knowing that it will nurtures me feeling good, everything else will kind of fall into place. So I think that's where my G then comes in.
Jessica Ell:Okay, not a human design expert, but Well, I think about, you know, the difference between clarity and certainty. I guess, to go back to your initial question, I like to think of it because certainty is not available to me. I have an open G and that means that my direction will never be clear and will never be certain. And when I heard that I was like, well, I'm dissatisfied with this assessment, but it made sense. You know, as I looked back on my life I realized I'd spent years and I still do kind of battling and trying for the sense of certainty that was always elusive.
Jessica Ell:That I never actually landed on and I realized that a lack of certainty did not preclude clarity. Lack of certainty did not preclude clarity, and I think about it as clarity to me means. This is the path and I am going to follow it. I do not know where it leads and I know that I must follow it, and when I feel that pull towards something, then I know that I am moving towards something interesting.
Jennifer Walter:I have no idea what it is, but I know it's going to be interesting. Yeah, it's kind of like a magnet. It's just kind of like pulling you towards this direction.
Jessica Ell:Yes, yes, and that can be very hard for people around you to understand. They're like you're doing what? Why?
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, yeah, like how could this possibly make sense? How is that gonna work out? For you and I'm like, uh, I don't know man like geez, not like don't have a magic eight ball with me.
Jessica Ell:It's currently out of order, but then think about, in contrast, the things that are socially common or culturally accepted and celebrated. It's like, okay, you're going to college, we know with certainty that you could finish that program in four years because it is laid out. Laid out as such, yes, we're certain. As long as you don't like, smoke too much pot and you go to all your classes, you will graduate in four years, we're certain about that. Yes, and that's the kind of thing that we like.
Jennifer Walter:we like that yeah, predictability yeah ah yeah, so you said it yourself you're on the path and I think we're always on the path to to embrace uncertainty, but, like, the discomfort of uncertainty can be really intense, like how, how can I help myself becoming more comfortable with the discomfort of uncertainty?
Jessica Ell:yeah, you know deep. Yeah, you know I think two things. Number one we kind of exist, if we're not conscious of it, on a spectrum between hope and fear. We have hope on one side and we have fear on the other. And a lot of times when we're grappling with uncertainty and we feel that kind of emotional wave and that internal chaos, it's because some days we're believing the hopeful thoughts and on other days we're believing the fearful ones, and so we're kind of just like pushed and pulled between those two ends of the spectrum, which is a very disorienting and experience, yeah, yeah, and so I think that one of one of the tools, of course, is just coming back to the present and realizing that this moment is all we have right now.
Jessica Ell:The future is an illusion, and so is the past. Right now is literally all we have eternity in this moment. So that's kind of like the spiritual perspective on it. The other thing that was practically useful for me, and has been for my clients, is becoming willing. Becoming willing to experience the negative things that you are afraid of on the other side of that uncertainty.
Jennifer Walter:Oh, okay, elaborate, because I I I already hear, like I can sometimes tune into um my listeners and they're like, uh, they're feeling this getting too uncomfortable, that they're kind of like setting the the speed of the conversation at like 1.5 or two, just kind of like get through it, but like no, no, no, no, you need to hear that. Please spell it.
Jessica Ell:Yeah, yeah, so one of my favorite thinkers is Joseph Campbell. So you may have heard of him. He's the mythologist and really interesting guy, and what he says is that the warrior's approach to life is to say yes to it all, say yay to it all, and that means everything right, like the sorrow and the joy, the things you're afraid of the whole human experience experience this, and I'll give you a concrete example.
Jessica Ell:I wrote fiction. I started writing fiction during COVID and because I was like I know what I'm going to do, I'm going to start a business writing novels and that's how I'm going to make a bunch of money, and I've never written a book before. But I'll start now and other people can do it, so so can I. So I started writing novels.
Jennifer Walter:That's a generator energy. I love it.
Jessica Ell:it I'm sorry and then, when it came time to publish the first one, I was like oh shit, uh, people like will probably say bad things about my books on Amazon, like they will probably write one star reviews, especially if I have the success that I want to have. Of course, there are going to be people who write negative things. And that like stopped me in my tracks for a while until I realized, okay, look, it's humiliation. That's what I was afraid of feeling. I think for so many people, the feeling of humiliation is like the worst possible thing, the worst possible emotion well, it's super closely tied to shame and shame is a really, really negative emotion from like energy skill wise yeah, and to be publicly humiliated.
Jessica Ell:And then I was like, oh my god, my, my colleagues will go on the internet and read these people trashing my work and I will never survive that, or they're one, these people trashing my work and I will never survive that, or they're one of them trashing them with alongside them and ultimately I asked myself I was like okay, jessica, are you willing to get one star reviews?
Jessica Ell:because if you're not, you can't do this. If you're not willing to get a one-star review, then pick a different plan, because you can't publish your books. And when I looked at it that way, I was like okay, well, well, we know what we're going to do now. We're going to practice that willingness muscle. How?
Jennifer Walter:did you? I'm curious how did you practice being comfortable or being okay with humiliation?
Jessica Ell:I was very gentle with myself. I was very gentle with myself. I did not force myself to go read reviews I still don't because it isn't useful to me, right? It isn't useful. Useful to me, right, it isn't useful. And I started to really again, as I was saying, coming to the present moment, just starting to be really aware of what real life is, and it really isn't online. You know, real life really isn't online.
Jessica Ell:Yes, agreed, yes, agreed, and so context, perspective, kind of taken a long view of my life. And here was another question I asked myself I'm like bitch, if you get to 90 years old and you find out that you did not publish your work because you were afraid someone was going to say bad things about you on Amazon, that is not a satisfactory answer for 90 year old me, so kind of going to the end. So a lot of different yeah.
Jennifer Walter:Asking future wise um just Jessica Jen, like okay, what? Looking back, how big was this?
Jessica Ell:Yeah, yeah, and it's about you, know, know.
Jennifer Walter:I think willingness really is about not letting fear drive your decisions yeah, 100%, which again is requires for a lot of unconditioning work for some people, because you might even not know that your decisions are fear-based right, because fear often sounds very logical oh okay how it's, how it's, uh, how is fear disguised and what kind of like?
Jessica Ell:what are costumes? What are its costumes? Oh, practicality, responsibility, oh yes, safety, smart, like Smart.
Jennifer Walter:Doing what's smart.
Jessica Ell:Yeah, yeah, yeah, doing what's rational, doing what's going to, you know, set you up like in the clearest, best path, right, oh, like this is obviously the best path to a good future, yeah.
Jennifer Walter:Obviously so, like the law degree getting a becoming a doctor or something like yeah, whatever.
Jessica Ell:Yeah.
Jennifer Walter:So a lot of the things like the, the good on paper things maybe too like this makes, yes, this looks. I mean, this is the thing that just makes sense, like the law degree or the law degree your next education, your next online course? If you're an entrepreneur, you're like. This just makes so much sense.
Jessica Ell:Yes, it makes sense. You know, and I think we talked a little bit about this my first big decision, my first kind of deviation onto the scenic route, if you will, was when I decided not to go to law school. I had a seat at one of the top 10 schools in the US with a significant scholarship and I'd gotten into almost every other school in that tier. And I ended up not going, but not after a year, not until I'd spent a year kind of deliberating and swinging wildly between hope and fear, hope and fear, and ultimately I didn't go and it was the right decision for me. But I made it out of fear instead of, you know, a deep knowing that I didn't want to be an attorney. I was afraid I couldn't cut it.
Jessica Ell:So, even though it looked like the right decision, like this is clear, it's certain, you're definitely going to land a good job. Going to land a good job, the fear part of me was like okay, but you might not right. Like what if you can't cut it? Like I'm not sure you're even smart enough to be there in the first place. Maybe this is all a fluke. Like all of the imposter syndrome really started coming up and what convinced me like the very convincing lie was that, well, it's irresponsible to take on that much debt and you probably just shouldn't go. You know, like that's still even with the scholarship, it's still a lot of debt. So, and the economy is bad, because this was like in 2011,. The economy is terrible. Legal jobs are being bled from all the major firms, all of these kinds of things, and you can come up with facts to support any position.
Jennifer Walter:Oh God, yes, you know, and that's what way you, if you're pregnant, for example, you suddenly only see pregnant women, because it reaffirms right. Yeah, the reticular activating system, but I'm curious something you said just just before you. You made a right decision for yourself, although the decision itself was fear-based. So fear is not just the bad guy we kind of like paint it to be like. It has a role of keeping us safe and it helped you make the right decision yeah, it's not interesting.
Jessica Ell:You know, as I look back on, I wish that I had made that decision from a place of courage instead of a place of fear. Even though it would have been the same, it still would have been like, hey, I'm not going to go, I'm going to go kind of kind of blaze my own path here, but making it from fear. What that ended up doing to me over the next 15 years was I just kind of stopped believing in myself. I was like, oh, you let that opportunity get away because you were too afraid, and that became a stick that I used to beat myself with. Like you know, you gosh, what did I say to myself? You know, you're too fearful, you're too afraid, and was just kind of bullying myself with that, which didn't ever make me less afraid of things, of course, it never does.
Jennifer Walter:Shaming yourself into anything is never gonna work. Spoiler.
Jessica Ell:Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I do think you know, if I could go back in time and have a conversation with myself, I think I would have just pointed out like hey, you're trying to convince yourself to do something that you don't really want to do. You don't really want to go to law school, and this whole saga has been about trying to convince yourself that it's safe to go. But that fearful part of your brain is like offering you kind of silly reasons, because I would have been fine.
Jessica Ell:I would have gone, I would have gotten a job, I would have been fine.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, would you have died? No, probably not. You would have been fine.
Jessica Ell:But I think that you know the essential self, the wise part of me, was like oh no, we can't let her go, so let's just offer her all these crazy reasons, these unrealistic reasons that seem so responsible that seem so where those reasons are totally legit, like if you wouldn't have had a scholarship- if you're not coming from generational wealth or whatever, like those could be totally legit reasons to not do something.
Jennifer Walter:So it's always really, I guess it comes down to being really honest with yourself what is bullshit and what is not. Yeah, yeah. Because, ultimately only you can tell.
Jessica Ell:So true, and if I had actually wanted to be an attorney and the economy was terrible and the money was a problem and all of those things, guess what I would have gone to a cheaper school, I would have found some school where I could have gotten a free ride, and that's what I would have done. And that's what I'm talking about. Like, when you have a path that you know you're meant to be on, it's easy to do whatever it takes to follow it. And I think for a lot of us, we just don't have that experience, or we haven't had the experience of finding that path because we're so often following someone else's.
Jennifer Walter:Very true. Or, and again, this is not like a conscious thing, right? We often are in the belief that this is our path, and it's only when we're doing certain reflective work that we're like, oh wait a minute, like do I actually want this thing? Or has this, I don't know, is it more? Am I conditioned to want this thing?
Jessica Ell:Yeah, or am I persuading myself right? Because often too and I just went through this myself this year I went through a period. My dad got cancer last year and I moved back to my hometown to manage his treatment and I left my hometown for a reason 15 years ago and I didn't expect to be back here. But it's been a good year. And for the last six months I was kind of like, oh you know what, I should just stay and remain close to my family. And I had a lot of reasons, a lot of reasons, and I was like, oh you know what, I should just stay and remain close to my family. And I had a lot of reasons, a lot of reasons, and I was like, oh, this is going to be great, I love being close to them. And you know, when you start to persuade yourself right, and you don't even realize that, like you were saying, that you're lying- to yourself, and what finally clicked in for me was that I call it the mist of unease, right Like I just felt uneasy.
Jennifer Walter:I see the novelist thing there. Yes, okay.
Jessica Ell:But that's how it felt right, I think.
Jessica Ell:Sometimes we think about intuition as like a sudden flash of insight or a sudden knowing and for me that does happen. And also when I am deep into persuading myself about something because I'm experiencing a values conflict, when two parts of me that I love and respect are in conflict with each other and I start to persuade myself, everything just kind of gets gray, like my whole life just feels like I'm walking through a scottish highland mist kind of vibe, and it's very easy to miss, like to not even realize that it's happening because it's so subtle, until one day you're like god damn, it's been cloudy for six months yeah, all this black and white suddenly when it just started, like decolorizing slowly and slowly.
Jessica Ell:Yeah, what is like this? Movie pleasant will or something that's exactly what I think about.
Jennifer Walter:Yes, okay good, good, good. We're on the same pop culture, pop culture level here yes, exactly no. That's how I experience it oh interesting yeah so I'm glad we're or we're moving or kind of like. Moving to intuition how, how does like your intuition play into making decisions for yourself?
Jessica Ell:I have a a long relationship with intuition in the sense that, like for the first 25 years of my life, I didn't believe I had any. When people would say trust your gut or trust your intuition, I'd be like what are you talking about? Like I've never experienced this sensation that you are talking about. Yeah, until one night in the summer of I think it was 2014,. I was really grappling with a hard decision. It was a personal relationship situation and I was just losing my mind over this decision and people were telling me to trust my gut and I was like I don't know what the hell that means. So I Googled it. I Googled how to trust your intuition.
Jennifer Walter:Oh, what did.
Jessica Ell:Google say Well, let me ask first Do you have? Well, you're a projector, so you don't have a sacral response.
Jennifer Walter:No, I'm, and I'm actually a self-defined projector.
Jennifer Walter:Okay so what is your experience of intuition? I don't know, maybe it goes back to the defined G, but I just know, you just know, and it's really the knowing is really in the second brain and the gut, but sometimes it's harder to hear or harder to believe what you're hearing and as I have two defined centers, the G and the throat Well, hello podcast. So whenever I'm not really sure if it's my intuition talking or some conditioning or whatever, I talk to myself and then it gets really clear fast just the way I talk and what kind of words I use, if I'm persuading myself to do something xyz, or if it's actually what I want or what my inner voice is telling me yeah, yeah, I think intuition is so tricky.
Jessica Ell:So when people say, just trust your intuition, they never say that it's hard to do, because it is like there's one thing to hear it, it is and it isn't like I think taking action based on intuition is an incredibly faithful thing to do.
Jennifer Walter:Yes, that's a different ballgame. There are a lot of people who listen to their intuition and who hear their intuition, but do not take action on it.
Jessica Ell:So they're not really trusting it, then I suppose so yeah, if you trust it you just do it right, True? I think that's the practice. Probably the practice is really trusting it.
Jennifer Walter:You first need to hear it to trust it, but then you need to trust it enough to actually take action. Right, Because you said it so beautifully before. Clarity comes from moving right. Anything, all the money you can do, vision boards until you get like old, as long as you don't move on on anything and it's yeah, it's not real.
Jessica Ell:and I mean, I don't know how much traveling you've done, but every time I get to a place, i'm'm like, oh, this is great, and it's also not what I thought it was going to be. You know, it's not what I imagined it was going to be. So my vision when I get those things I'm like oh, this isn't quite universe, is this what I ordered? Because it's not the experience I thought it was going to be.
Jennifer Walter:I did not sign up for this.
Jennifer Walter:Please exchange Exactly and you only find that out when you experience it. You get that clarity when you live it. Yeah, that reminds me. That was I had I think it's four years ago now, when I was like, okay, there, I and I know I need to address some shit and I have no idea on addressing that. Like I I've been, I didn't grow. I did not grow up like having, like having I haven't been mirrored, how to deal with emotions and all these like murky bits, and so I was like, okay, I've got to try different things, just kind of like throwing spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.
Jennifer Walter:And it was really interesting. There were like some things where I'm like sound healing like what the hell is that? Like that is stupid, I'm like not gonna do this. But then I said, no, you know, I'm gonna just try everything once and I was sobbing like a baby and I was releasing so much fruit that's one sound healing work session. It was insane. So you never know, until you try, it's just never. I never thought sound healing would have any effect on me like whatsoever. It's like no, no, I'm like I'm too logical for this. I'm my mind is too smart for this, whatever, blah, blah, blah. No, the body knew so funny.
Jessica Ell:Oh, I'm too smart for this.
Jennifer Walter:I know the trick behind this or something. Yeah, right.
Jessica Ell:I know logically how this works.
Jennifer Walter:And therefore I'm not falling into the trap.
Jessica Ell:Thank you, you can't fool me, but I think you know. To come back to intuition, right, and how you know it, know that it's speaking to you and how to trust it. I Googled how to trust your intuition. First thing that popped up was an article on an Oprah magazine, and I was not an Oprah fan, she was just kind of like there she existed, but I wasn't a huge Oprah person. But this woman named Martha Beck had written an article about how to trust your intuition and I was like I don't know who this lady is, but she had an exercise kind of laid out in this article and I was like all right, this sounds like shit, but I'll do it. This sounds stupid.
Jennifer Walter:It sounds like shit. That's not going to work out. Let's just give it a try.
Jessica Ell:Right, I'm like. No, I need to think my way to an answer.
Jennifer Walter:Oh, need to think my way to an answer.
Jessica Ell:Oh right, yeah, girl, I've been there, like I'm going to just rationalize this Exactly, Even though I've been trying to do that for you know, Did it work? No, it did not. No, it did not. And I did the exercise and I had the exact physical experience that she said I would have. And I was like what is this Sor?
Jennifer Walter:what is sorcery?
Jessica Ell:exactly what is this sorcery and that sent me down a path of you know, I read all of Martha's books and I, you know, completed her life coach training. Yeah, and that, in terms of things you never expect to happen, like you never thought you were going to get the sound healing, I never thought I was going to become a life coach Like ever, ever. And you know, though, it worked and it gave me the toolbox that she gave me in terms of that lesson on trusting your intuition. That was just one piece, right. Our intuition, I think, speaks to us in multiple ways. It's not just one thing you might have a physical response to something, and another time you might have, like, what you call that just knowing. I experienced that too, and that's almost the harder thing to trust, because you can't explain it. You're like I just know.
Jennifer Walter:I just know. But the thing again. Do you need to explain it though?
Jessica Ell:Well, we think we need to explain it to other people.
Jennifer Walter:But do we really?
Jessica Ell:No, no, we don't.
Jennifer Walter:Like no bitch, we don't. But, yes, I mean, I know it is right when you do something that seems crazy, that's probably I don't know. I'm curious if how your like families and friends and peers reacted to you deciding not going to law school, because it can be really an isolating experience when you're like, no, I'm not gonna do this, and everyone's like she, like she just lost her mind.
Jessica Ell:Yes, it was that, it was exactly. It's exactly that. Sorry. And you know my parents. They didn't go to college and for me to have gotten into this tier of school and to have gotten scholarships, they're like what are you doing?
Jennifer Walter:You're throwing your life away, baby girl.
Jessica Ell:Exactly and I was like no, no, it's going to be fine. I got a job at a nonprofit and they're going to pay me $13 an hour and they you know, to their credit, they did not punish me for that decision. Quote unquote punish me Right, they didn't give me a hard time, they didn't, you know, like ice me out or criticize me or anything like that. But they were disappointed and for a long time, you know, I kind of watched other people's lives, you know, like I had friends in med school and you know I'd watch their lives progress down these kind of clear tracks and I think, what are you doing, jessica?
Jennifer Walter:that could have been you yeah, you could have been now the freshman, the freshman year to soften me, yeah exactly, exactly, um.
Jessica Ell:But you know, I always thought I made the right decision and, in hindsight, so many things. This is like they. I call it reverse engineering magic, because you can't know what's going to happen Anytime. Someone says, well, don't worry about the how. I remember being like, I'm sorry. How am I supposed to do anything If I'm not thinking about the how like this is. This is dumb.
Jennifer Walter:Oh, I love this. Yes, yes, spiritual guidance 101. Right, don't worry about the how and I'm like bitch, just roll out, fall into place. Just remove the ego, remove the timing and let everything fall into its place. And when you're new, when you're at the beginning of your spiritual journey or whatever you want to call it, you're like bitch shut the fuck up.
Jessica Ell:Exactly so. Here is my guidance for those people. So the past me reverse, engineer the magic in your life and like, take something that, take something that seems magical, that seems great, something about your life that you love, and walk it backward.
Jessica Ell:Like, walk back through the events and the opportunities that led to that thing happening in your life and at some point you will find something in that chain of events that you could not have predicted, that you could not have expected and said oh, you know what this person from my past life is going to call me, and they are going to offer me this role in this city for this money, doing X, y, z, thing that I am totally unqualified to, or going to recommend my book to someone influential with a bigger audience, or just something wildly crazy that you're like, no, could not have thought about this. Well, and you could never have even you truly could not have imagined it.
Jessica Ell:It's not even that you could imagine it, and it was highly improbable it's likely to be something that you simply could not have even conceived of.
Jennifer Walter:There's really left eye like left. It's just coming out of nowhere, almost like yes.
Jessica Ell:Interesting, yes, and that to me, once I started to do that with my life, I was like, oh, this is what they mean. I could not have predicted how this would happen. This is what they're talking about. They're talking about those completely unexpected things, those completely unexpected things, and the trick is to just work at what you can see in front of you, right, bring your absolute best to whatever is in front of you today and just keep doing that and then eventually these like magic diversions pop up and yeah that's how it happens.
Jennifer Walter:That's kind of like where the whole I think that's the only true bit of the whole consistency thing right, just keep doing something long enough, but, as you've said, if if you've never experienced a payoff before, right, it is a really tough walk that you're relying just simply on faith that this thing you're doing, that, this thing that you're giving your all to it and your all doesn't mean hustle yourself to the ground for it. We're not doing that, but how can we keep up the strength that is required to keep carrying on?
Jessica Ell:Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's number one. You don't have to be consistent at shit that you hate, right?
Jennifer Walter:yes, that's why most diets fail because you cannot like yeah will yourself into doing things you hate doing for the rest of your fucking life, like no no, you can't do it forever, so like yeah, also, there's no there's no joy and fun in that.
Jessica Ell:Oh, maybe that's one of the keys just really look at the things that bring you joy and fun and feel light and and if you don't know what those things are, then take some pressure off right, like I think we're so and I am so guilty of this right, we're all like.
Jennifer Walter:It takes one to know one like it's.
Jessica Ell:I'm so guilty of like okay, but how is this going to make me money?
Jennifer Walter:yeah, this, this thing is cute, but like I'm going to pay my bills, right, how am I supposed to make money doing this?
Jessica Ell:I just recently started bedazzling my books, so I've got my my fiction novels and I was like, oh, it'd be kind of fun to bedazzle these, like. I wonder if I could sell these and then so I got like bedazzled special edition, collector edition. You absolutely can sell them on Etsy.
Jennifer Walter:I mean girl. You can sell any, literally anything. There are people who buy bottled air and like use panties and like whatever kind of crazy fakes there are right, like yes, yes, so absolutely, but that was not the point.
Jessica Ell:I was just trying to find something to do that was like fun and intentionally not about making money. Because we put so much pressure on ourselves to like even find the path right or even to like do more joyful things.
Jennifer Walter:I'm like, god damn it, I've got to do something joyful today oh god, I, oh yeah, this I can relate with like, with doing, you know, doing meditation things. When I was at the beginning of my meditation practice, I was really like bitch, you've got to fucking do this meditation right now or you're not chill. It's like, oh, that's probably not the point of this exercise.
Jessica Ell:But hey, okay, let's try again tomorrow, because spirituality I don't even even know. I'm sure there are think pieces written about this, but spirituality now being used as like all, about making money, like every, every spiritual practice capitalism fucking everywhere, and it's awful yeah, and you know you, I know it's not, it's easy to say and hard to do, but like you have to do things just for the doing of it, not because it's going to get you to an end. And I think that's why it's called the scenic road bitch.
Jessica Ell:Yes. Okay, I want to say one of my favorite I guess she's I mean, she's's a celebrity, but I see her as just a, a thinker, more than that is jane fonda, which I realize might be weird no, why?
Jessica Ell:she's a fucking icon like and the way she has lived her life. She's had a life of so much variety and so many different chapters. Her autobiography is one of my favorite reads and I just think you know that's the point. The point is not to find the fastest way, the most linear way to make money and then die rich. That is not the point. The point is to live an interesting life right, with a lot of chapters, with a lot of different experiences, and some of that, I think, especially if you're in a place where things feel drab because I've certainly been there, I'm like my whole life is just drab right now. Some of the work starts with like well, hey, what am I interested in reading today?
Jennifer Walter:not to improve myself, not to change anything, not another like entrepreneurship book or time management book or just yeah. What do I actually want to fucking read today?
Jessica Ell:yeah, yeah, I just actually bought myself a scooter because there's a skate park not far from my house oh fun and I was like looking at all these kids, I'm like that looks like fun. So I bought myself a scooter and got here today and I cannot monetize my scooting okay.
Jennifer Walter:I'm just going to go do it for fun. Well, I mean, you could make funny TikToks.
Jessica Ell:Just throwing it out there. You're right, everything is monetizable.
Jennifer Walter:Yes, I know, just throwing it out there. You're right, everything is monetizable. Yes, I know it's awful, but I know, right like people go back to having a hobby, just a fun pastime.
Jessica Ell:Yes, you do for the funsies of it, and you don't have to put it on the internet and you don't have to tell people that you're doing it. You can just I don't know do some things on the weekends and just do it.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, just don't get up at five in the morning to do it, if you don't want to get up at five in the morning if you're not a morning person, please don't like the 5 am club.
Jessica Ell:I cannot like, I don't like. Oh see, and I'm a morning person, but I also go.
Jennifer Walter:Good for you. I'm like I. I I also like mornings, but if I know, like the 5am club, where you like get out at 5am in the morning and have a cold shower and everything like that, I'm like no.
Jessica Ell:Okay, so years ago, when I was working in real estate and running a real estate company, I got this weird idea in my head. I don't know, I was unwell. I was unwell.
Jessica Ell:I was like I need to be in the office at 6 am so I have two hours of uninterrupted work time before anyone calls me before the team comes in. So I started waking up at 3.30 in the morning so that I could journal and go to the gym and do my meditations and then shower and be at my desk at 6 am and I thought I was the baddest bitch. And now I look back, I'm like you were unwell.
Jessica Ell:You were not a well woman at that point in time. There was a lot of stuff going on that wasn't right, wow.
Jennifer Walter:And that, yeah, that's a really important realization, but, I imagine, also a hard one.
Jessica Ell:Yeah, because we often, I think, when our lives aren't working the way we want them to. We're like oh you, you know what. I just need to go back to what I used to do that worked for me, right? Like and usually, I think, the first time you try things like the first time you go on a diet because we mentioned that earlier it probably worked decently well, right? And you're like oh okay, I could do this.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah sure you lost. Probably you lost a few pounds.
Jessica Ell:You're like, okay, this is good I was only eating 1200 calories a day, but it worked, and so, now that I've gained 10 pounds, the answer is I've got to go back to eating 1200 calories a day. Right, but each time you go back to those old solutions and those old tools, I find that they work less well. There are diminishing returns each time you try to go back to a hyper rigid structure or hyper rigid tool and your adherence is not quite as long. You just can't take it.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah and it might not. The same goes with like I don't know spiritual tools that work well for you, or like journaling, or going to your, to your like, like therapist, like it's you're everything, you do, everything that you experience. You're always changing. You're always becoming a different person. So something that might have worked for you in the past, however well, might not work as well today.
Jessica Ell:So true, you're just different. You're just different. I've had to change up my journaling practice significantly and sometimes there have been periods where I'm like, oh, I wish the old thing just worked. I wish it just worked the way it used to. But you're right, you know you change yeah, and then they have.
Jennifer Walter:You have a nostalgia filter where you're like, oh, everything was so bad, was so much better back in the days, and like, no, that's such a good reminder like especially when you're you're hating where you are.
Jessica Ell:It's like just remember, like the thing that you're you were so nostalgic for. At that point in time you were also probably itching to get out of it, and it's just such a good reminder to be like you know what. You don't have to fix all your problems today. You can just kind of enjoy your life because you know, back when things were so great, you were also unhappy, unhappy. So maybe you should just fix the unhappiness and and not try yeah, the root cause.
Jennifer Walter:Yep, yeah, 100%. Like really look at, okay, what is actually going on and like, yeah, not just like fixing symptoms instead of running off like the next job.
Jessica Ell:I think people do that in jobs a lot, you know next job will be better no, probably not yeah, or relationships probably, oh yeah yeah, jobs and relationships, they're basically the same thing. The same kind of patterns show up in both yeah, yeah, true, oh, this is, yeah.
Jennifer Walter:I mean, it's really interesting the whole looking back thing, maybe as a closing thought on the concept of like regret. Right, we had it. We mentioned a couple of times in our conversation, like we're looking back and only in hindsight, like we gain so much wisdom in hindsight, and this is true and it's also important. Also, sometimes it doesn't matter, but I always find it's very tricky when we come into regret. Oh, like, oh, I should have done this or I should have gone to law school, or I should have done this. What's what's your take on um regret when we're looking at these things, especially what we've talked about in like a certainty, right, my take is that we're only regretting something because we're not liking where we are right now. So we say, okay, if I would have chosen a different path, I unconsciously implied whatever else I would have done would be better than where I'm at now.
Jessica Ell:Right, we assume that the path not taken would be like sunshine and daisies, and of course we don't know that to be true. But I have a gentler view of regret than I used to, because I used to be very opposed, like, for the longest time I wouldn't say, you know, like, hey, I do wonder what would have happened if I had gone to law school. There is a part of me that regrets, there is a part of me that's curious, and now I just think you know what, like, there is room for all of that on the table. We get one round of this version of this life. You cannot experience everything. You cannot experience all the paths that are available to you. So you might as well just make peace with hey, there are going to be some choices that I didn't choose, and it's okay to wonder about them. It's okay to wonder like hey, maybe I should have done that, maybe you should have, but you didn't. So here you are, wonder like hey, maybe I should have done that, maybe you should have, but you didn't.
Jennifer Walter:So here you are and no I. That was the right decision at that at that time. You always, yeah, make the best decisions, do the best things at the time, given with all with who you are, all the information you have available to you.
Jessica Ell:You made the right call at that time right, right, and it's based on who you were, and so, looking back from the perspective of five years, you're a different person today.
Jessica Ell:So what you would do today really has no bearing on what five years ago did. But I also think you know I call it future regrets because I used to be paralyzed by the fear of future regret, like, oh my God, am I going to regret this decision? Am I going to regret that? But fear of future regret Like, oh my God, am I going to regret this decision?
Jessica Ell:Am I going to regret that? But if I do this, then that and like I was just paralyzed by that and you know what I've had to do is really I think you just make peace with it. You confront those regrets head on right, like you really address them, and then you think about, like I was saying with the Amazon reviews and being humiliated, I went forward and I was like, am I going to regret not publishing my books for this specific reason? The answer was yes and that made the path pretty clear for me. So I think anytime you can address those regrets head on, then at least you've got it on paper right. Then you know what you're really dealing with instead of letting it chase itself around in your mind.
Jennifer Walter:That's, in general, very sound life coaching advice. But, yeah, really like really get it out on paper, like maybe to recap all the like what you want, like bring it out of just your mind in any way you can. Like I shared that I need to talk things out because the fine throat hello um, others need can do that with journaling like I can't by the life of me. But whatever kind of way you find bringing it out into the world and keep your mind from spinning and endless cycles and circles and then acting on it, yeah Right.
Jennifer Walter:As you said clarity for anything, clarity about your values, your direction, your anything comes from moving, from actually doing the thing From doing it, and I think too, with regret.
Jessica Ell:understanding what you regret from your past can be incredibly illuminating about your future so if you regret not taking chances, if you regret holding yourself back, if you regret staying in relationships too long. All of those things are so much data about how you can guide your decisions in the future. And if you know all of those kind of talking it out, writing it on paper, I have a free quiz on my website called the future regrets finder quiz. That kind of walks you through my process of how I look for those. So that'll, that's at JessicaLcom slash quiz if anyone's interested in that.
Jennifer Walter:We're going to link it in the show notes. Thank you for doing the perfect segue into ending this episode for me. Yeah, Because I'm like, oh shit, I got to be mindful of the time. This happens always. So I'm going to link this quiz in the show notes If you've been intrigued with what Jessica shared with us today. Like, go do the quiz If people want to hear more of you or want to read your books. Where can people find you? Where do you hang out?
Jessica Ell:So I hang out on social media. I am just on Instagram at the Jessica E-L-L, and then my website and podcast and all that other stuff is at JessicaLcom.
Jennifer Walter:Perfect, I like a central hub for anything. Before I let you go, I'll ask one last question what book are you currently reading or what audiobook you're currently listening to?
Jessica Ell:I am reading Britney Spears' autobiography right now.
Jennifer Walter:Oh, I heard many good things about it. It's also on my list.
Jessica Ell:Yeah, yeah, I am enjoying it and I read Mariah Carey's Over the Winter and it's so interesting to see and to hear about that experience that we see so publicly. To hear about the internal experience of it is like really fascinating what we see outside versus what is happening inside yeah, I feel everyone knows, everyone remembers.
Jennifer Walter:Like the britney spears shaved head. Yes, period I'm right at that point I'm right oh, good, goody, okay, yes, it's gonna, it's. It's moving up on my, on my uh, god get to read list and, yeah, as always, if you're like this, it will also be linked in the in the show notes, and it's also going on the scenic route book club page. So whenever you're finished what you're reading right now, go have a look. Um, awesome guests read awesome books. So, jess, thank you so much for being on the.
Jessica Ell:CineGroot with me. Thank you so much for having me, Jennifer.
Jennifer Walter:And just like that, we've reached the end of another journey together on the CineGroot podcast. Thank you for spending time with us. Curious for more stories or in search of the resources mentioned in today's episode, visit us at scenigroupodcastcom for everything you need and if you're ready to embrace your scenigroup, I've got something special for you. Step off the beaten path with my scenigroup affirmation card deck. It's crafted for those moments when you're seeking courage, yearning to trust your inner voice and eager to carve out a path authentically, unmistakably yours. Pick your scenic route affirmation today and let it support you. Excited about where your journey might lead? I certainly am. Remember, the scenic route is not just about the destination, but the experiences, learnings and joy we discover along the way. Thank you for being here and I look forward to seeing you on the scenic route again.
