Grief and Healing: The Art of Somatic Awareness and Witnessing with Parijat Deshpande

In this powerful episode of The Scenic Route Podcast, host Jennifer Walter dives deep into the often misunderstood world of grief and healing with expert Parijat Deshpande, MS and founder of Ruvelle. 

Together, they explore: 

• The universal nature of grief and why all loss is valid
• How to integrate loss into daily life and honour loved ones
• The importance of raising our somatic capacity for emotions
• Cultural perspectives on grief and mourning
• Building empathy and becoming a witness to others' grief
• Practical tips for navigating difficult conversations about loss
• The connection between grief, empathy, and social change

Parijat shares invaluable insights on trauma-informed approaches to healing, challenging societal norms around grief, and empowering listeners to embrace their unique grief journey. Whether you're processing a personal loss or supporting a loved one, this episode offers compassionate guidance and practical tools for navigating the complex terrain of grief.
 
Tune in for a heartfelt conversation that will leave you feeling more connected, empowered, and hopeful in your healing journey.

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Connect with Parijat Deshpande
Website
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LinkedIn

Her book
Pregnancy Brain: A Mind-Body Approach to Stress Management During a High-Risk Pregnancy

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Chapters

• 0:00 Exploring Grief
• 11:33 Integrating Memorialization and Daily Grieving
• 25:38 Recognizing Needs and Emotions for Healing
• 43:14 The Power of Empathy in Grief
• 52:12 Navigating Your Scenic Route

Transcript

Jennifer Walter: 0:00

Hey, babe, ready for another deep dive? I know you are. So, hey, this week I have

Jennifer Walter: 0:06

on with me. She's an expert Ruvel on grief and healthy, high-risk pregnancies. We're going deep and we're getting real about grief. And we're not just talking breakups or pregnancy losses. We're exploring the full spectrum of loss, from shattered dreams to lost innocence. Parichat and I, we're going to break down why we can't just spot, treat our grief and we'll dig in how to rebuild our capacity to feel all emotions, not just the comfortable ones. And if you've ever wondered how to navigate a Journa. awkward about grief, Scenic Route within your closest family even. We're tackling that too.

Jennifer Walter: 0:38

So buckle up for an honest, heartfelt and maybe even surprisingly uplifting ride on the Cinegra podcast. Your next perspective shifts await you coming hi. And welcome to the scenic route podcast, where we believe in embracing life's journey with purpose, curiosity and a bit of potty humor. One's own cool mom and I'm always looking out for that perfect slice of gluten-free rhubarb pie. Every week I get the joy of sitting down with dreamers and doers who dare to take the road less traveled in pursuit of their own magic. Together we dive into the inspiring stories of soulful entrepreneurs and visionary leaders who boldly share their beliefs, lessons and fuck-ups. Excited, so am I. You're exactly where you're meant to be, and now let's take this conversation off the beaten track.

Jennifer Walter: 1:31

Aricha Deshpande is the founder of Ruevel, the only truly trauma-informed company specifically dedicated to improving high-risk pregnancy outcomes, reducing preterm birth and supporting parents to pass on generational health. Reducing preterm birth and supporting parents to pass on generational health. On a mission to end the high-risk pregnancy crisis, she has served and supported thousands of clients through her life events, virtual courses, one-to-one consulting, her best-selling book Pregnancy Brain a mind-body approach to stress management during a high-risk pregnancy, as well as the Body Language Journal Parichat. Welcome to the Cinegrad podcast. How are you, hi?

Parijat Deshpande: 2:03

Jennifer, I'm doing well. I'm so excited to be here chatting with you today. I've been looking forward to this.

Jennifer Walter: 2:10

Thank you, me too. Although we have a heavy topic for some, today we're going to talk about our relationship with loss, and the loss could be is so manifold, right, it could be the loss of our dreams, of our hopes, of a loved one, of someone who isn't isn't physically in this world yet, and just what that does to us and how we can recover. And, going into this conversation, I feel I really want to say that there is no competition in loss. If you feel deep grief and loss for something that is no longer here, in whatever shape or form you desire it to be, that is valid. It's no competition, all loss. There is enough room for everyone to grief their loss on their own terms, right?

Parijat Deshpande: 3:24

yes, I see you nodding. Everyone who's watching is so appreciative that you started with that Cause I think there is there is so much comparison. Is my loss justified for me to be able to express it to you, to others, to myself, publicly, privately, privately. There's so much comparison and I just really appreciate that you started with that. There's, there is room.

Jennifer Walter: 3:52

There's room for all of us it's so interesting, right, that we we always go into this comparison and it doesn't. Sometimes we always hear about like social media of like, oh, I'm like comparing myself to, like to that girl over there with, like the shiny hair and the weather, but we also do it with shitty things where, where that we actually don't want, and we still fall into this comparison thing. It's. It's really interesting. Yeah, it's really. All all loss is is equal, and but also we're not just comparing like our loss to someone else's. I did this weird thing. I still sometimes mourn my healthy body. That no longer is Right and it's really interesting. I sometimes also ask myself the question oh, like, is it even like allowed to still grieve after years? Is there like an acceptable limit for grief? Or how long can I bother someone with my grief? What's your take on this, parichat?

Parijat Deshpande: 5:10

I mean, yes, I think that is a totally valid loss that I think so many people can relate to the loss of my healthy body, the loss of my health. You know, that is a very valid loss. I think so many people can relate to that and I think, you know, as you were talking, it just kept coming to mind of who's putting that limit. Why do we have this internalized belief Because I think we all do to some degree that there is an acceptable amount of time during which I am allowed to talk about this and it'll be okay. And then and I think that time varies probably by family, by community, by culture, but at some point there's an end point and it always makes me wonder.

Parijat Deshpande: 6:00

Otherwise you become the weird one Right Like oh, you're still not over it. Oh, you're still stuck in time, the stuck in time one Exactly, and I think what that speaks to more than anything else is our collective inability to tolerate grief.

Jennifer Walter: 6:17

So we have a non-culture of grief, yeah almost, yeah, I think.

Parijat Deshpande: 6:22

so I think there's. You know, I can certainly speak to the Western kind of American culture of there is no tolerance for grief. It is something that we need to get over very quickly. Compared to my cultural background, a decent amount, you know. I learned actually a lot growing up about how much tolerance there is for mourning after very specific losses, and in that time you have all the leeway to feel, all the things to experience. You have tremendous support, but there's an end point and after that it's OK, business as usual.

Jennifer Walter: 7:04

It is time to move on.

Parijat Deshpande: 7:06

Yeah, it's time to move on, and I really do believe that. I think that's a combination of societally, maybe even from many, many, many, many generations ago. There just wasn't. We didn't have the time, we didn't have the resources because we needed to focus on taking care of our families, and so perhaps that's where it came from, that we're going to allow for a certain amount of time to honor the loss, and then we have to put a cap on it, because we have to practically get back to life to take care of our communities, and I think what that might have done is translated to now a more in our more modern society, where we, generally speaking, are in decent shape to be able to take care of our families, hopefully so right. Not maybe in the ways that we always want to, but we have more resources than we did multiple generations ago. No-transcript puts an internal clock in all of our heads to go. Is it? Is it too long now? Do I need to stop talking about this?

Jennifer Walter: 8:40

it's. It's so true, right, like we, we tend to rush through everything that doesn't make us feel good, which hello, of course. I mean I got many speeding tickets for going through sticky and shitty emotions too fast. But it also almost feels like we have not really a concept of closure anymore. Right, we like we have, I don't know. Sometimes, you see, you see this pinterest inspirational quotes of like, oh, like your losses are like scars and they never fade away. You like your wounds are like scars. You still, you will never see the scars, something like that. It it's beautiful, in a sense of, yes, like this has shaped me and it will always be a part of me. And, but with scars too. I mean, I have scars who still hurt. It doesn't mean there is no hurt there. So how can we find closure if they're still hurt? Yeah, yeah, you know what I it's actually.

Parijat Deshpande: 10:02

I love that you brought that up because, too, of being the child of immigrants born and raised in the United States and seeing the mourning practices that my parents participated in, compared to what I was seeing happening here in the US with my US-based friends, and I was fascinated, like, what does that do to our experience of grief and loss? And we know, actually, there's a lot of research that shows any kind of mourning practice, any kind of mourning ritual, is so important in helping to integrate the loss into our life. And I use that word integrate very intentionally, because we're not talking about you move on, you get over it. The pain sometimes is still there, but what we mean by that and I bring this into my work with my private clients all the time is how can we bring that loss into your day-to-day to honor?

Parijat Deshpande: 11:00

So I work with people who experience pregnancy losses or infant losses, neonatal losses, so they've lost their children. So we work, you know, with people who experience pregnancy losses or infant losses, neonatal losses, so they've lost their children. So we go. How do we integrate that child or those children into your day-to-day in a way that feels whole and supportive to you? Now, we always wish that that child was here running around and doing all the things and being here and you get to raise them. That's not the case. But how else, given that that's not the case, how can we integrate them in? And that ritual can be something so simple. It does not have to be complicated. There are clients I have had where they chose not to have a funeral for their child. That's fine.

Jennifer Walter: 11:39

There are other clients who have Whatever supports you. Right, it's about you. It's not about whatever expects you to do. Other clients who have Whatever supports you right, it's about you.

Parijat Deshpande: 11:45

It's not about whatever expects you to do Exactly. I have had clients who are very religious and they followed those tenets, and I have clients who are not religious and they've created their own traditions, but the common thread between all of them is how do we integrate it? Not how do we have a moment in time where we memorialize and then we move on, but much more about what is going to help you integrate that person into the day-to-day for you.

Jennifer Walter: 12:13

Okay this feels epic moment. I feel we have to go deeper into this. The differentiation between Now I have a brain fart Of memorialization. The differentiation between Now I have a brain fart Of memorialization no, I feel now my English is leaving me. Memorialization no, that's not the word.

Parijat Deshpande: 12:38

Memorializing, memorializing, oh yeah.

Jennifer Walter: 12:42

Like everyone please excuse me, English is not my native language. Anyway, memorializing, oh yeah, Like everyone please excuse me, english is not my native language. Anyway, memorializing, and just like the grave difference between dad and having like a shrine or a monument as a sort of like a test, like a frozen piece in time to compare to really having an integrated practice, can you tell us more about that? Like also how how this does look for like some of your clients, so we get an idea of that, because I feel this is really big.

Parijat Deshpande: 13:20

Absolutely so.

Parijat Deshpande: 13:22

I'll just give some examples from over the years.

Parijat Deshpande: 13:25

Like, I've had clients where they have taken photos of their children and they have those photos right next to all the other family photos and that's a really great way to memorialize and to have them kind of be part of, say, a visual of the family, say a visual of the family. I've had clients where they've done the same thing. They've taken pictures or maybe footprints or handprints of their children and they put them on the Christmas tree along with their living children. There are other clients where they had, like I said, a full memorial with a funeral and the event and there was a whole big day that was very important to them where their family came and they really participated, even for children, for parents who lost their children early in pregnancy and it's not typically seen, but it was something that was very important to them to have a memorial, to talk about this child that they were never going to be able to raise. Those are some examples of memorializing.

Parijat Deshpande: 14:21

There's so many different ways you can do that. The integration piece is much more day-to-day and that's not to say it's either, or With my private clients we find a way to do both. If memorializing is important, then we find a way to also integrate, and if memorializing is not important to them, then we still find a way to integrate. Integration, I think, is most important and helpful in that you create a ritual in your day-to-day to include them, just like we have rituals with the people that we are sharing our life with. Right, we say good morning to each other, we say good night to each other. We might call them, we might text them, we might hug them. We have already created rituals with the people already in our life. So how can we do that with the people we don't get to share our life with anymore? So I've had clients. You know, every morning they will say good morning to their partner, their living children and to their children that they don't get to raise anymore. Some of them will, you know, look up into the sky. Some of them will look at a picture. Some of them will just close their eyes and kind of feel the presence of those children.

Parijat Deshpande: 15:22

Rituals around holidays, right. I've had clients where they said, you know, it's really important to me that we create a place at the children's table to say, hey, this child was supposed to be here and we're gonna remember him or her by having the space there, and you can imagine there's a lot of very difficult conversations that have to happen with family members who are very uncomfortable with that. But for the client, for those parents, that was really important. So they include them in that. I've had clients where they leave a space at the table, their dinner table, every night, and there's just that's a space. Whether it's set or not set, that's up to them. Good night, practices at the end of the day, birthdays, rituals at that point you know what do you want to say? What are there songs you want to sing that you sing every day and then that's your connection to that person. So there's a lot of very simple ways that you can include them in the process of getting through your day to day.

Jennifer Walter: 16:18

And in your experiences, does tremendously support them and their grieving journey.

Parijat Deshpande: 16:23

So much because I think a lot of that pain that you were talking about, of the scar, for at least a lot of my clients we've identified that much of that pain is from wanting to remember that child and feeling like they're not allowed to.

Jennifer Walter: 16:38

Oh, this is so sad, but I totally get it right because it ties back into what's the socially acceptable limit of grief. Am I still allowed to grieve? I don't know giving up that one dream I had when I was in my 20s and now I'm I'm early 40s and I'm like why are you still grieving? Like it's yeah, we really gotta stop with that. Like that's yeah annoying. Like there's no other word agreed how I feel.

Jennifer Walter: 17:13

When we talk about loss and grief, we we have to mention um, not just because she, she has a both our roots she's a swiss-American or she was a Swiss-American. Psychiatrist, elizabeth Kugler-Ross who had, I think it was. Her book was called On Death and Dying, not sure. The Five Stages of Grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression and Acceptance, yes, do you feel that's still a valid model that you like, consciously or unconsciously, walk your clients through?

Parijat Deshpande: 17:51

so I think what's interesting about that model is that it was never meant for the grievers, that model was meant for those who are dying or those are like actually preparing for death.

Jennifer Walter: 18:00

Oh, interesting. Okay, so I was. I'm corrupting the model here. Oh, excuse me. Interesting oh.

Parijat Deshpande: 18:09

Yeah, so it's not. It's not a model that I typically work with, although you know, we have clients, obviously, who are familiar with it, so they bring that to the table and they go. Where do you think I am and you know, because my work is somatic in nature we really try to dive into, well, what's your body doing at this point? And we try to find different patterns that maybe don't necessarily map with her stages of grief and how she's laid them out, but more of what are your patterns and how do they show up? Because we start to see, by different points of the year, different times of day, usually triggered by some kind of somatic memory or sensory memory. We usually start to see those kinds of patterns and those are the ones that I think are far more interesting to me, because they give, they tell the story of what happened and what needs to be addressed.

Jennifer Walter: 18:57

Still, how, how can those, how can those like somatic experiences, memories, look like? I feel anyone who's listening in is kind of like, oh, like, maybe it's just me. I like to kind of like, I, I really like this, like the stages of like, oh no, I'm getting closer to which is again, there is no, there's no, really like not an end, what? How does grief manifest in the body?

Parijat Deshpande: 19:32

yeah, it, um, it can look of a hundred different ways and I think, if anybody, you might hear other people saying, well, it's going to be in this very specific part of your body. It's going to feel this one specific way. I would definitely caution anyone listening to rely on that as the one and only truth, because what happens with our bodies is we all metabolize everything differently, from food to emotions, to experiences. If I eat something and you eat something, our bodies are going to do different things with it. Right, same thing with loss. The experience of the loss is tied not only to the loss itself. So this is now a dream, a hope, a person I don't have or don't have anymore, but it's also what was my body doing at the time of the loss, and that's going to impact how we experience it too. So, truthfully, in my work with clients, I see it presenting a lot as chronic pain. I see it presenting a lot yeah.

Parijat Deshpande: 20:36

A lot of chronic pain, chronic achiness, shoulders hunched over, headaches, insomnia. That's how I see it presented. Now, that's, of course, not the only way that it's presented, and when we dive deeper with clients we start to make connections. But it shows up in these ways because of what our body is doing to try to metabolize the grief. And if we cannot metabolize the grief because it's tied to traumatic stress, then it's going to stay stuck and it's going to show up in physical symptoms Grief, I like to tell my clients grief is not supposed to feel good. Right, that sounds so obvious when I say it it. But we tend to have this expectation, because of the pressure around us, to like don't be too, don't be too big about this and maybe tone it down a little, and oh, I love it down a little right.

Parijat Deshpande: 21:33

We have a lot of pressure, spoken and unspoken, from people around us and so we tend to think that if it's a really big awful experience, there's something wrong with us.

Parijat Deshpande: 21:45

And that is not necessarily the case and the initial acute phase and there's no time that we can put to that it's going to be tsunami level waves coming very, very fast and eventually the intensity of the waves and the frequency of that will speed up that process, if you will. But it's really important to remember that just because it feels bad doesn't mean it's wrong. And I especially say that for listeners who are thinking about someone else in their life who they're concerned about, because they get a lot of referrals from concerned family members goingyz person had a miscarriage, xyz person had a stillbirth. They're really struggling and I go. My first question to them is are they really struggling, because I know it doesn't feel good, I understand that, but are they struggling to the point where they need help or are they struggling to the point where they just need you to witness them without trying to rush them along?

Jennifer Walter: 22:59

Again we're going back to. We have a non-culture of like grief and closure, right, because we don't, we even don't want to feel grief by proxy, right? So we're like, okay, I'm shuffling him off to a specialist so I can feel better about myself, like I've done something.

Parijat Deshpande: 23:18

Exactly, exactly, and it's a very. I know it comes from a good place. I know they're trying to help yes, 100%, and I think it's a really wonderful opportunity to think about. What about this is making me uncomfortable watching my loved one so devastated, right? Where can I then also increase what we call my somatic capacity to experience the loss or the grief with them, so that I can support them in the way that they need?

Jennifer Walter: 23:52

Oh, okay, this is now we're going to do a deep dive here again because I feel this is now we're gonna. We're gonna do a deep dive here again because I feel this is really universally helpful, right, especially in this moment in time we're in because we have so much global, accumulated global grief. At the moment, it's really hard to turn on the news and listen to them, and I don't believe that just tuning out of listening to the news is a solution not for me anyway. I feel still want to feel detached to the world, but how can we raise our somatic capacity for grief?

Parijat Deshpande: 24:39

Yeah. So growing somatic capacity is similar to, say, losing weight, right that a lot of people will say, well, how do I tone my abs, how do I tone my arms, or something like that. It's like, well, you can't spot treat. And that's the same thing with somatic capacity is we can't spot treat. We can't just say, well, I'm going to grow my somatic capacity for grief, but I will not do it for anger or joy, right?

Jennifer Walter: 25:06

So what we yeah.

Parijat Deshpande: 25:09

So what we really need to do is just grow somatic capacity in general, and the way that we do that is we have to learn first. We have to learn how to experience our internal sensations first, and that usually when I start with that with my clients, is when they initially recognize how disembodied we really are, that we think that we can feel things and we can. We can feel some things, but we are so cut off globally from so many of our basic sensations. And I'll just give you an example. I see all the time.

Parijat Deshpande: 25:39

How often do we sit here in front of our computers and we're working. We have to go to the bathroom. We know we have to go to the bathroom. We know it's coming and we wait, and we wait and we push, and we push until we just cannot wait any longer. And now we are just ended and we got to run and go hold on anything. I gotta run. I'll be right back. The signs were there like two hours ago. Same thing with hunger. We're doing something, stomach starts grumbling. You notice you're hungry and we push and we push and we push and we start snapping at people right exactly comes out everywhere.

Parijat Deshpande: 26:15

Hangryryland comes oh, Hangryland yes.

Jennifer Walter: 26:17

Right, my toddler has Hangryland by the finest, like it's insane. I mean we're to blame because we should recognize the signs sooner, but hey.

Parijat Deshpande: 26:30

I get it, but that's exactly it. Right Is we ignore signs and if we can't listen to our basic, fundamental needs, it is going to be extremely difficult for us to be present for our more complex needs, for ourselves and for our community why do you think we're now at this time?

Jennifer Walter: 26:53

I feel a lot of people relate to that.

Jennifer Walter: 26:56

I mean, I sometimes might brush it off on like neurodiversity but, it's surely a case that we have a hard time identifying needs and emotions. Yeah, I know. For my part, I was never really modeled emotions as a kid. Yes, yes, like I, we didn't talk about emotions. I didn't know why I was feeling shitty, if it's because I'm hungry or I am tired or I'm angry angry or resentful like I did, did right, kind of had to figure it out on my own, which was a fun 30s. So how can we, how can we, how did we get there and how can we sort of course correct, and for ourselves and also for the children we're raising?

Parijat Deshpande: 28:00

Yeah, I think we got here systemically. I don't think it's an individual thing Agreed, you know, I think, or both for sure, because it's always.

Parijat Deshpande: 28:10

Right, and I think a lot of the roots can be drawn to the fact that our medical system, which then translated into our mental health system, which is because it's all built in the same way started to differentiate between mind and body many, many hundreds of years ago. And they say there is a mind and body connection. I realized that, the irony of that, because that is part of my subtitle of my book, but that's for SEO.

Jennifer Walter: 28:41

We do things for SEO like please don't hate us, Exactly.

Parijat Deshpande: 28:47

But many hundreds of years ago that was started to be separated, that there's a body and then there's a mind, and that's kind of from. There is how the mental health field and psychology started is, if I have something going on with me neck down, I'm going to see my doctor, and if I have something going on with me that seems like it's a mind thing, I'm going to see my psychologist, my psychiatrist.

Jennifer Walter: 29:09

God forbid it's both Exactly.

Parijat Deshpande: 29:12

I think that's what happened. Is, I think, that then translated to a change in how we do research and understand the human body, separating out understanding mental health versus physical health? Everything is separate not too long ago. We now finally have a field that that I'm a part of called psychoneuroimmunology. That's finally, finally going.

Parijat Deshpande: 29:33

Um, there's this thing called connection, like they're actually like physically connected, the same. We are not floating heads and walking bodies, but it's some days, yeah, it would be kind of nice, but but I think it's a very new field, right, and it's pushing up against a system that is very well rooted in this idea of mind and body separation. And I think when the medical field started with that, it trickled into culture and so you see a lot of Western culture. This concept was created in Western culture, so you see a lot of Western culture embody that in society and you know, we start to have not only different kinds of jobs but we start to talk about it differently. And then there's a stigma around it, right, that, oh, I have a broken arm, but I will not tell you about my anxiety, that kind of a thing, and you do see a difference, right.

Parijat Deshpande: 30:32

I feel like this is where I feel very lucky to be bicultural in that way, even though I grew up in the United States just staying very closely connected to the Indian culture, where there are cultures that are less or are slower to pick up the Western trends, and you can see the shift that's happening, that in Eastern cultures, if you will, to speak in shorthand, that disconnect does not exist, and as those countries and cultures are becoming more westernized, you start to see the language change again, and so I do think that there is kind of this overarching kind of waterfall effect that then translates to I grew up in a family that didn't talk about feelings, and now what do I do about it?

Parijat Deshpande: 31:19

Because I would like to change that for my child. I used to work as a child therapist back in the day 150 years ago, and I would always say child therapy is family therapy and child therapy really is parent therapy first. If we want to teach our children how to identify their feelings, we have to be able to do it at the drop of a hat for ourselves first, because it's not a lesson we have to teach our children. If we do it for ourselves, they'll learn it by watching yeah, that's exactly.

Jennifer Walter: 31:51

You don't. You don't teach children by telling them, but by showing them.

Parijat Deshpande: 31:55

Yeah.

Jennifer Walter: 31:56

And you cannot show if you cannot apply.

Parijat Deshpande: 31:59

Yeah, exactly yeah, and I think there's sometimes parents feel a little like, oh my God, I got to get it right and perfect. And I think, no, actually there's a lot of learning. That happens in the imperfection. I can blow up in frustration because something pushed my buttons and my kids might see that, and then it is in the repair and the recovery from that is when the learning happens. I can talk about oh, this thing frustrated me, I could feel it, I could feel my jaw tensing up, I feel my fists going this and I just wanted to yell really loud. And then I did yell really loud. That must have been really scary to hear. It was scary to feel. And look at what they've learned already with just those two sentences.

Jennifer Walter: 32:47

Yeah, it's really the skill a lot of parents need to develop is to really be humble and be like yeah, mommy fucked us up, bad, but you know?

Parijat Deshpande: 33:03

yeah, now we're gonna see what we're gonna do with that right and how we're gonna put the pieces back together exactly that is an invaluable skill for children to learn, because you know that they're gonna do the same as they grow up. There will be mistakes, they will make mistakes, they will cross lines, they will do things that they regret. That's a given, and it's far more interesting and far more helpful, I think, for them to learn what do I do on the other side? How do I fix that? How do I ask for help? Right Gosh, how many of us grew up.

Jennifer Walter: 33:37

That's another podcast episode. How do you ask and receive help? I want to circle back to something you said earlier, because I feel this will also really support people in their individual grieving journeys. We've established that you have to do in your grieving journey what feels good to you and what supports you. And yet we all have these people in our lives who are like maybe it's your mother-in-law I, please, I hope it's not your partner, um who are like or it's your boss, or it's your work, it's. We're just like, yeah, just get on. Like how? What is your advice on? On handling those sticky situations, for example, when you have to explain why there is like a set, a set plate on the christmas dinner table?

Parijat Deshpande: 34:50

yeah, I think. I think it involves first starting with being very honest with yourself about how important that is to you, because, again, I think we tend to… Explaining yourself or needing or wanting that right the table, the place at the dinner table, the picture on the wall, whatever it is that you're asking for from others. How important is that to you? Is it a non-negotiable? Is it something that would feel bad if you, if they said no and you went along with it but you could? Does it not matter? Like I think it's really important to be honest with that because, yeah, because sometimes, sometimes it is non-negotiable. I have had clients where they said you know what this is worth? The family fight, because it is that important to me, right, then that's a different conversation versus are you doing this because you want acknowledgement from somebody that this child existed, because then it doesn't have to be a place at the table.

Jennifer Walter: 35:54

No, there are other ways to be seen and heard.

Parijat Deshpande: 35:57

Exactly, and I think if you can differentiate the two, then it's a lot easier to figure out. Is this a fight that's worth it? Sometimes the answer is yes and sometimes it's oh, oh. I guess I just wish they would say their name more. I wish we could talk about them more, I wish I could tell them that, hey, their birthday is coming or the loss anniversary is coming, and I just want a hug from my mom, you know, and you can identify that. Then you can ask for what you want. But if we go down the path of yeah, no, this is it and the fight is worth it, then I think it's helpful to present it in a way that is non-negotiable to you, like you would anything else, and many times I use the example of like food allergies right, I've grown up with food out severe food allergies. It is a non-negotiable. Yeah, you too yeah, what is yours.

Parijat Deshpande: 36:45

I'm allergic to all legumes and pulses oh, oh, yeah, I can raise it, I can that's very true.

Jennifer Walter: 36:54

That's like the silliest culture, because your Indian food is very good for mine, really. Yes, I have celiacs, oh yes, and I'm like. Give me the lentils. I have a very good friend. Give me the chickpea, I'm good with everything Exactly.

Parijat Deshpande: 37:11

Yes, I have a very good friend here. We're like I guess we're never going to be able to eat together Because she's the same way, that's what she needs to eat too. But so then you. So you know then, like there are, it is a non-negotiable I if you give me a chickpea, I will not eat it because it will make it'll send me to the hospital, right? Similarly, if this is what I want, I want the picture on the wall, I want the Christmas tree ornament, I want the place sitting at the table, something like that then how would you talk about food allergies in the same way, or whatever else is non-negotiable in your life? You talk about it from a place of, hey, this is important and this is why it's important, and all you can do is express that. How the other person receives it and whether they are comfortable or uncomfortable with it is not on you. Your job is not to make people comfortable. Your job is to ask for what is important to you.

Jennifer Walter: 38:15

I'm going to stitch this on my pillow because the amount of times I mean okay, I must say no fairness. My, my celiac diagnosis is not that long ago, so I still sometimes feel like bad for like, like, when we're at the restaurant of like. You know, could you like just please make sure and like how, like and like. Is there really like? No good? Yeah, in a very polite and considerate way, it's really interesting how we're, yeah, how it's not our job. Thank you for mentioning that it's not our job.

Parijat Deshpande: 38:48

No, and it takes practice, right. So this is the other thing. It's going to feel awful and uncomfortable and terrible the first time and maybe the fifth time. But if it's that important to you which is why it's so important to start with being honest with yourself if it is that important to you, then you just practice over and over, and over and over and you practice it in a way that feels best to you, right? There's no script that I can give that say hey, say it this way, because who you are and who you're talking to is going to affect how you say it. Right? Yes, so say it the way you've always said it. You're not a bad person. You've had hard conversations before. This is just one more.

Jennifer Walter: 39:30

And their discomfort is not yours, it's not yours, it's not your problem and it's not your problem to solve amen, and I feel it all goes back and I think this is probably our last talking point of to our abysmal culture of dealing with grief right and this also. I mean I still have moment, I still bring back my celiac example, but like I, we still have. I still have moments where I'm invited to family gatherings, but there's literally no food for me, yep, and I'm like cool.

Jennifer Walter: 40:11

There were also moments, um, uh, gatherings, where I'm like okay, I'm going because I feel unwanted here. So, and this is very much, and it slowly starts shifting. I mean, we know big cultural changes last generations, but how can we contribute to a better culture of grief?

Parijat Deshpande: 40:44

I love that question. I love that because it yeah, I love it. I think doing our own work individually to grow our own capacity for grief is infectious, that it doesn't affect the people around us positively those immediately around us, but then also the larger community that we're a part of, and now, because everything is digital, that community can cross oceans, just like we're doing right now. I think it sounds as trite as it sounds. I think building our own somatic capacity for grief is critical because it'll allow us then to ask for what we need more effectively, more frequently, more confidently, but it'll also allow us to ask different questions for those that are mourning their losses in our lives. Right, we are going to be less uncomfortable saying that child's name or saying that person's name, or we will be able to sit in silence longer as they're telling us about the hopes, the dreams that they have lost, the health that they have lost, and we won't feel the pull to try to fix it for them.

Parijat Deshpande: 42:04

Right, I think, if we want to see a cultural shift, I think it's got to start with us first, and then I think the question that's always got to be in our minds and I do this for myself, too, is what about this is making me uncomfortable and how can I get more comfortable with that? Because it's if it's their loss and I'm uncomfortable. Imagine how uncomfortable they are because their heart is shattered. So how can I increase my comfort level? In sitting with this, in being with these people, and I do that for somebody else, they will ultimately be able to go oh, that felt great. I'm going to take that and say that, or do that for the other person, just reciprocate in any sort of way, exactly yes, yes, exactly.

Parijat Deshpande: 42:53

I think it's a powerful approach and it won't take long. I think you'll see the effects of it quite quickly if we can all commit to it oh 100.

Jennifer Walter: 43:03

I mean, those things really can speed up overnight, almost right, once it's kind of like caught fire. Yes, I feel like we also have to talk about because it's so tightly together right With raising our own somatic capacity for grief. Is empathy, yes, and I funnily enough, I'm gonna link it and the show notes. I just last week I wrote um a piece on empathy as a catalyst for social change. Right, how we can start feeling more empathic is really, um goes into broader structural changes as well, and this is also something we've lost along the way to be empathic and be like, yes, it's almost again.

Jennifer Walter: 44:04

We're going full circle back to your first conversation, right, we compare each other to like our griefs to each other and like as if my grief, like her grief, would take away something from my grief. I don't know Late-stage capitalism, I fucking hate it here. Like I don't know, I always blame anything on capitalism that goes wrong. But hey, well, you know what? What? You're not wrong. There's smoke, there's fire, yes, but it's really how, like, what's your take on empathy? Right, like how tightly it is tied together with raising our somatic capacity for grief and seeing what others need.

Parijat Deshpande: 44:52

Yeah, I think it's very closely connected. I mean that example I gave earlier about getting referrals from loved ones. If I just need you know, maybe can you help her out, can you help her out, right? I think a lot of that is is not necessarily that they're not empathic people. I think it's that their empathy is allowing them to feel a tiny smidge of how bad it feels to be mourning a loss. And because they don't have the somatic capacity, they don't know what else to do other than to make a referral to a specialist. If we had bigger somatic capacity, we could sit with that empathy longer. Because what grief needs the most out of everything else and assuming it's not tied to traumatic stress, what grief needs primarily, first and foremost, is a witness, and that witness can be anybody. And that witness, when empathic can be tremendously healing, when empathic can be tremendously healing.

Jennifer Walter: 45:50

Yeah, I mean I remember back to I mean all the, the big and also like the, the looking back less significant, significant events, maybe when I was a kid. Like all those times I mean I lost so many things, I lost so many toys as a kid, like I probably. Now I'm like why did my parents ever give me anything? Um, but I remember I once lost one of my favorite plushies and I was so heartbroken, I was devastated and it wasn't really like my parents basic reaction was like oh, you lose things all the time, things. I guess I don't know how this is helping me. I felt so unseen. Yes, yes, right, imagine if, I don't know if, if my mom or dad would have sent me that, sat me down and be like, oh, this is really a terrible loss.

Jennifer Walter: 46:50

Just acknowledging, yeah, yes, and witnessing man game changer right, exactly, exactly and I'm probably gonna have to add, uh, another chapter on the article I wrote on empathy and as a catalyst for social change, and really, yes, because it's really true.

Jennifer Walter: 47:16

People feel then like the little nudges of empathy but they can't hold it, they don't know what to do with it, they're like trying to scratch it out, and it's really interesting um point of view that you raised um, we have to raise our somatic capacity to hold it. It's really interesting. I have to think about this and then probably add a another uh chapter to the article, how we really need to be able to sit with things, and I think this is also like a really great way to I feel we've come, we've came full circle with our conversation. Parichat, thank you so much for going on this pleasantly unpleasant, unpleasantly pleasant journey I'm talking about grief and loss and heartbreak and that you'd spun it in a way that leaves us hopeful, and I really wish that anyone who's tuned in today is also feeling hopeful, because I feel it was really an empowering, inspiring conversation.

Parijat Deshpande: 48:36

So glad. Thank you for the invitation to be on this journey with you.

Jennifer Walter: 48:41

So for anyone who wants to get to know more of you, wants to connect with you, where can they find you online?

Parijat Deshpande: 48:49

yeah, the best place is uh, on the website, ruvelcom, and from there we have links to our shop, our products, our services, our social media. We're on facebook, instagram threads I don't know where everybody is you name it, you're there but all the links are from the website. That would be the best place to come.

Jennifer Walter: 49:07

Perfect, we're gonna link everything in the show notes and I always have a lot of last flash question before I let you go yeah what book are you currently reading or what audiobook you're currently listening to?

Parijat Deshpande: 49:20

I am currently reading white nights by anne cleaves. I am am a huge British crime drama fan and the show Shetland. I saw that first and I loved it yeah.

Jennifer Walter: 49:36

Have you seen it? No, I haven't. It's on my watch list, yes, as soon as I'm done with the second season of Unprisoned.

Parijat Deshpande: 49:47

I have not seen that one, but I know I've heard of it. Watch it.

Jennifer Walter: 49:49

Watch it If you're any, if you're into mindset, psychology, all those things, it's such a good show. Love it, shetland is up next.

Parijat Deshpande: 49:58

Shetland is excellent. It is so well done and it's actually different than the books, which are also exceptionally well done. So White Nights is the second of the series.

Jennifer Walter: 50:09

And.

Parijat Deshpande: 50:09

I'm just savoring that, but I'm like reading it so slowly because I just want to savor the experience of it oh, that's cool.

Jennifer Walter: 50:15

I did not know it was a book series. Yeah, which part in uk is it set? Like the shetland islands? Like really yes oh, okay, okay, okay um, and let's speak of like British crime now, like when you said British crime, I'm like oh yes yes, I can always mention like have you read any of Ian Rankin's books?

Parijat Deshpande: 50:39

I have not. No, I just finished Val McDermott's series, oh yeah, and Cleaves' second.

Jennifer Walter: 50:44

Yeah, I mean, if you or anyone listening in wants to start ian rankings um inspector rebus series, the good thing, be warned, there are like why now almost like 20 books in the series, wow, which is good and not good. It's good because you always know what to read next, but because it's going to take you forever. But it's so good and it's um they, the, the novels, are all set in Edinburgh, in Scotland oh nice, okay, I've got it on my list.

Jennifer Walter: 51:20

I love it. Yeah, I was even like full-out nerd when I first time I was in Edinburgh. I was like, oh, I gotta go see that pub where it always goes for like a nightcap and the pub actually exists.

Jennifer Walter: 51:31

That is awesome. I would totally do the same. Yeah, I'm like my friend was like sure we can go have a drink there or any other pub, it's fine. I'm like, nah, it's got to be that one, okay, one, okay. So the reason I ask um, those regular regulars know where I'm gonna link all the books mentioned um and the cineground book club web page. So whenever you're like, dang, what do I read next? Go have a look there. And yes, crime series, shetland and um john rebus, highly recommended. But be warned, you're gonna be reading forever. So, parichat, thank you so much for being on the scenic route with me.

Parijat Deshpande: 52:14

Thank you, jennifer, this is lovely.

Jennifer Walter: 52:19

And just like that, we've reached the end of another journey together on the Scenic Route Podcast. Thank you for spending time with us. Curious for more stories or in search of the resources mentioned in today's episode, Visit us at scenigroupodcastcom for everything you need. And if you're ready to embrace your scenic route, I've got something special for you. Step off the beaten path with my scenic route affirmation card deck. It's crafted for those moments when you're seeking courage, yearning to trust your inner voice and eager to carve out a path authentically, unmistakably yours. Pick your scenic route affirmation today and let it support you. Excited about where your journey might lead? I certainly am. Remember, the scenic route is not just about the destination, but the experiences, learnings and joy we discover along the way. Thank you for being here and I look forward to seeing you on the scenic route again.