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Scenic Route
Life's one helluva ride — why not enjoy the view?
The Scenic Route Podcast is your audio chill pill, serving up mindset shifts, laughs, and 'aha!' moments that fuel your soul and your wallet.
We're all about:
- Finding purpose (without the fluff)
- Embracing the soft life (because hustle culture is so last season)
- Real talk (sugar-coating? Not around here)
- Actionable insights (for when you're ready)
- Daring convos (we go there, babes)
- Building resilience (without the toxic positivity)
- Mindfulness for real people (with real problems)
Whether you're feeling lost and emotionally exhausted, hiding from your kids in the bathroom, need a break from the chaos, or want to zen out, we've got you covered.
Join Jennifer Walter, sociologist (MASoc UCC) and pathfinder, on this journey to inner peace — with a generous side of potty humour.
Ready to care less about others' BS and more about your own bliss? Hop on The Scenic Route. Trust us, the view up here is *chef's kiss*.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Your next chill session awaits. You coming?
Scenic Route
Why Do We Stay? The Truth About Toxic Relationships with Caitlin Liz Fisher
In this powerful episode, we dive deep into the psychology of toxic relationships with author and creativity coach Caitlin Liz Fisher. Breaking the silence on why leaving isn't as simple as "just walking away," Caitlin shares her raw, personal journey through abuse, manipulation, and, ultimately, freedom.
In This Episode
- The shocking truth: It takes an average of 7 attempts to leave an abusive relationship
- Why abuse only works with "good times" in between
- How gaslighting and isolation tactics gradually erode self-worth
- Red flags in relationships and early warning signs
- The role of trauma bonds in keeping us stuck
- Rebuilding identity and self-trust after abuse
Key Insights
- Understanding the cycle of abuse and love bombing
- How abusers target and exploit past trauma
- The connection between childhood experiences and adult relationships
- Why smart, capable people stay in toxic relationships
- The importance of recognizing patterns before they become chains
Content Warning: This episode contains discussions of emotional abuse, manipulation, and toxic relationships.
If you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship, help is available. You're not alone.
Connect with Caitlin Liz Fisher
Website
Instagram
YouTube
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Desire to find your Scenic Route? Visit jenniferwalter.me — a welcoming space for the emotionally exhausted to rest, discover, and playfully embrace inner peace. Embrace a softer, more fulfilling life today!
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Tap into your inner wisdom and let it guide you.
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Curious about what insights await you today? Dive in and let your scenic journey unfold, one affirmation at a time.
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Have you ever looked at someone else's toxic relationship and thought why don't they just leave? Or maybe you've asked yourself the same question, lying awake at 3am wondering why your own feet feel like they're stuck in concrete? Today's episode might just be the most important conversation you'll hear this month. Joining us is Caitlin Fisher, who's about to take us on a raw and honest journey through the psychology of why we stay in relationships that stopped serving us long ago. From the cornfields of Ohio to the corners of our own minds, we'll explore the invisible change that bind us, the love-bombing that keeps us hopeful, the gaslighting that makes us doubt our reality, and the cycle of good times that make us think. Maybe this time it's different. Whether you're questioning your own relationship, supporting someone who might be struggling, or simply want to understand the complexity of human attachment, this episode will shine a light on the patterns we often can't see when we're in the middle of them.
Jennifer Walter:Hi and welcome to the Scenic RootR Podcast, where we believe in embracing life's journey with purpose, curiosity and a bit of potty humor. I'm your once-on-cool mom and I'm always looking out for that perfect slice of gluten-free rhubarb pie. Every week, I get the joy of sitting down with dreamers and doers who dare to take the road less traveled in pursuit of their own magic. Together, we dive into the inspiring stories of soulful entrepreneurs and visionary leaders who boldly share their beliefs, lessons and fuck-ups. Excited, so am I. You're exactly where you're meant to be, and now let's take this conversation off the beaten track.
Jennifer Walter:Caitlyn Liz Fisher is an author and creativity coach who turned their gifted kid burnout into a way to help neurodivergent, disabled and queer creatives get their passions back on the priority list. Every challenge they've overcome abuse, parental estrangement, toxic jobs and even crappy breakups has helped them learn to say yes to their deep down dreams and no to the status quo. They are now living their absolute weirdest abnormal life and advocating for others to do the same by subverting capitalism and embracing a world where we can finally stop hustling. We've talked a lot about relationships and today, caitlin and I we're gonna talk about, well, what happens if we know we want to leave a relationship but we don't, and then at some point, we finally get our shit together and do leave. Um, all of those uh questions. So, like, what for you in in your relationship, kathleen? Do you want to walk us through like, was there a pivotal moment when you realized oh, this relationship is no longer serving me.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:There were. So it took me two attempts. It takes an average of seven attempts to leave an abusive relationship. Seven, seven is the average and it took me two. So we can imagine that for some people out there it's taken them 15, 20 attempts to actually get out.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Wow, and like that makes sense when we think about like all the different factors that can go into a relationship right. So like if, if you're only, you only have one income, it's hard to leave because you don't have the money to go get your own place to stay. And if you have been like a stay at home parent, then you don't have like the work history to get a job that will pay enough for you to get a place. And then if you've got kids, like it's just layers on layers on layers. So I was very lucky that we didn't have kids and I had a separate bank account.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:And the first time that I was going to leave I wanted like a de-escalation, like I wasn't fully out but I did feel like there was abuse going on and so I wanted to just move out and sort of go back to dating rather than living together. And that was like my compromise and he was upset and he was. He was very much like I had no idea that all these issues were going on, like I, like I promise we can work on these like you don't have to leave, we can work on these while you, while, like, we still live together, and that's so, so easy to believe.
Jennifer Walter:So I stayed like a sound of a siren. I suppose right like he knew the right kind of words to say that yes yes, because when?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:so I know that I'm not directly answering your question, but I do promise to get there it's okay, we're gonna.
Jennifer Walter:We're gonna sing and sag on the scenic route. That's perfect it is.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:It's scenic, it's the scenic route. So we're going to take a little detour. Abuse does not work without good times.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Oh interesting If somebody was abusive 100% of the time, you would never stick around and a lot of abusers will wait until there is like a point of like where it would be difficult for you to leave. So for me that was when I moved in with him. When I moved in with him, like all of the romance and all of the lovey-dovey, adorable stuff like disappeared overnight. And then there was like always a reason. Like I'm really stressed, work is hard, I'm going through XYZ thing and it always makes sense in the moment, but when it becomes a pattern, you want to look at that. So when you're getting to the point where you're like am I in an abusive relationship? When you're not sure, it's because those good times feel really good and so think that the abuse part is is the aberration.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:That's the weird thing does it feel like I don't know this sounds maybe sounds when I weird when I say it out loud, but is it like something like this is kind of like the admission I have to pay for the good times, like like it comes with both, like it okay, I haven't like, I haven't looked at it like that, but I think that that that's definitely part of, like, the psychology of what's happening in the cycle of abuse, because when an incident happens, there's typically like look what you made me do, or I had to do this because I love you so much and it just I couldn't stand to see you doing something that made me jealous, and I know it was possessive, but it's because I love you so much and so, yeah, yeah, it's me, me, me very narcissistic tendencies, yeah.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:And you can get into this pattern where you think like, oh, like he loves me and maybe he doesn't show it in healthy ways, but I can help him, I can save him, I can show him the way to healthy communication. Okay, so an abuser needs a savior, yes, like an abuser needs an enabler, oh, and and it it becomes like a codependent relationship, because while you're building, like all these good times during the bad times, he's also laying in things like nobody's gonna love you like I do and like you're. You're really hard work. It's hard to be in a relationship with you, but I'm here putting in the time.
Jennifer Walter:Okay so eroding your sense of self, your self-worth?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yes very much eroding the sense of self-worth, and so it's simultaneously like, yes, he's hurting me, but he's also the only one who can love me, and that's like. That is where abuse thrives. When you are in that like in between, and you can't make somebody leave an abusive relationship, you can't make them see it, you can't make them do anything until, like, they have the moment, and for me that moment was, and for me that moment was we had actually met, both in open relationships, so we were previously non-monogamous and I now kind of doubt that his wife was super on the up and up on what he was doing because she was a like don't ask, don't tell, like, okay, allegedly she was fine with him dating around, getting his I mean you never know and ultimately none of your business.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:But right, yeah, um, but like that's, that's a red flag for me now. So even if it is totally like a hundred percent everybody's on board with this I would never do a don't ask, don't tell thing again just because of how this went for me. Like that's just, that's just a no for me. Fair play, thank you, I agree, and I was. I caught myself like daydreaming at work about having an affair. I was like how cool would it be if, like on my way home, I could just like stop at a random partner's house, like not a random partner, but like my secret affair partner, right? So I'm sitting here, I'm at work, I'm writing on the computer and just daydreaming like wouldn't it be nice to have somebody who loved me and then I'll go home and like that'll be fine, but I just really want to feel loved.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, bit of adventure or mystery or something.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:And because, like we came from like this place of non-monogamy, I was like, hold on, I don't. I don't want to be like deceitful, I don't want to cheat on my partner. Why don't I just open up a conversation and tell him how I'm feeling and see how he feels? Why don't I just open up a conversation and tell him how I'm feeling and see how he feels? And so I like sat him down and I was like look, I found myself daydreaming, like you know that, like our sex life has been rough because he would withhold sex for like weeks at a time and then have sex with me and thus like repeating the cycle. We're getting real intimate today, which?
Jennifer Walter:is. This is where the cinegrad led us, so perfect walking the path right as long as you're comfortable with. I'm fine. You want to share? I do hold space for you I tend to overshare.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:So so, yeah, my, my comfort level is fine. If I go too far, you tell me we'll come back oh, bitch please like perfect, okay. Um so like since I moved in with him, we had been having sexual problems and they were always somehow my fault, like I was pressuring him that's a classic abusive pattern again.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yes, I was pressuring him If he didn't sleep well and like I asked him for sex in the morning, he would be like you know, I didn't sleep well Like why are you doing this? You're, you're abusive. And like every single time he turned it around on me and so I learned to just quit asking so I wouldn't initiate sex anymore and he also didn't initiate sex. So we would basically get to a point where then I would feel like so touch starved and so unloved that I would be like going into like depression and like going to therapy and trying to like figure out what's wrong with me and everything. And then we would have sex for like a weekend, like we'd have a bunch of sex one weekend and then everything would feel better. And but then it went right back into the old pattern and I would be going weeks and weeks and weeks again.
Jennifer Walter:Okay, it's kind of like a star feasts yes Cycle.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, very much. Okay, yeah, Um, and so I thought you know, if he's got a low sex drive because he was older than me, um, you know, if this is like a sex drive thing, then I don't want to pressure him. And he had been telling me all these things like my sex drive was pressuring him, and so I thought I'm coming in with a solution. I'm like, well, look, we've done non-monogamy before, why don't we just do it again?
Jennifer Walter:yeah, pressure off for both pressure off and like maybe, yeah, maybe you can lay ground rules and both are fine with it yeah, he lost his mind.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:He was so upset with me, um, and like the first thing he said was well, well, if you're doing it, then I, I get to do it too. You know, like I would get to have other partners. And to that I was like if you have the sex drive for other partners, why aren't we having sex Cause? Like that's how this whole thing came about.
Jennifer Walter:That doesn't make sense.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, yeah, make it make sense for me. Um, and he said that, um, he assumed I was already cheating on him and that if I got pregnant within six months he would demand a paternity test and if it wasn't his, my options were abortion or divorce. And I'm like, okay, cool, noted, and he's going off, just going off the rails with like super controlling things and just it was just mask off, like I can't even really remember because I dissociated through half of it, but yeah, he kept me up until like one in the morning, like making me explain myself to him, like why I would ask that yeah and I finally just yeah, I have a thought like do you feel like him, like completely losing it?
Jennifer Walter:do you feel that has somehow to like, that he somehow is playing into he, him not having you to himself again, thus like isolating you and trying to maintain the control of the relationship?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I bet 100. Um, because we actually, when we met, um, he went on a date with a woman and she was like, oh, oh yeah, like I have a girlfriend, look at my pretty girlfriend, like, and showed him my picture. So he, incidentally, went on a date with my, a girlfriend that I had at the time. So I was married and then I had this girlfriend, um, and I had just had a breakup with a boyfriend several months prior, like, so I'm new to the polyamory game and I was making all kinds of mistakes.
Jennifer Walter:That could be another scenic route podcast, which is always the case when you're new to anything You're making mistakes, you're learning, you're trying out.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Absolutely so, like I'm learning, I'm trying, I'm learning communication and boundaries in a big way.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, which I suppose you have to if you're in a point of situation.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, you really do you really do Like if you're not going to be eaten alive by jealousy, and like anxiety and just I suppose you have to have resilience. Yes, and you honestly like if you have a relationship that is built on trust and communication and like you don't fear your partner.
Jennifer Walter:I think it's a lot easier to navigate an open relationship oh for sure, or it makes it possible, otherwise I don't think it's really possible.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, if there's fear there, then, like this is not going to end well for you yeah and like when he went off the rails, like that, he put a lot of fear um in me. But when sorry, I have to go back now when he met my girlfriend. She mentioned me and then he sent me a dm on the dating website where he met her and did not acknowledge that he knew her. He acted as though he had just found me, found me interesting, and wondered if I wanted to go on a date.
Jennifer Walter:Okay. It was kind of like a cat and mouse game from the get-go.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yes, and I like his name sounded familiar because she had told me about her date with this guy. And I was like oh, did you recently go on a date with so-and-so? And he was like yes, I did. Oh, funny, funny coincidence, such a small world.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I did, oh funny coincidence, such a small world, small world. And then he dated both of us for a while and then, I think, when he made the decision on which one he was going to pursue, he started sabotaging my relationship with her. Oh wow, so she and I broke up.
Jennifer Walter:What were the telltale signs that you led you to believe that?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Well, she and I got in touch after I left him and we pieced these puzzle pieces together okay, yeah, in hindsight makes sense, yeah yeah, because she I never knew that she had like told him about me on that first date. And so he came in all innocent like, oh, what a small world, what a coincidence. And it's like motherfucker, he targeted me, he literally targeted predator behavior for sure yes, because I was very young um.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I was 23 and he was 41 oh god, no dude, no, no, that's baby caitlin, no, it's it was rough, yeah, um, I wish like anybody in my family had been like that's a little weird, like nobody, nobody. It didn't set off anybody's sensors and that's. I'm sorry. I feel that's very sad for me. Yes, I feel you totally. This is very sad for me.
Jennifer Walter:Yes, I feel you Totally. This is very sad for you and I feel very sad for you and rest assured, mine wouldn't either. Yeah, Because you know we talked about mothers, yeah.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:So I broke up with her, he also broke up with her, and then he and I were like we're going're gonna be monogamous, even though we're both still married to other people at this point. I got a divorce very fast because I was like I want to be with you. Yeah, he was giving me love, my life, my second chance, like he wanted to have kids, and he was like you're my second chance to be a father, and I'm 23 and an idiot and I was like I can save him, dear God, I want to go back.
Jennifer Walter:Young and stupid ones Like that's.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I know, I know, like I really try not to get down on myself because it wasn't my fault, and especially coming from an emotionally like neglectful childhood. I was primed for this because, like I don't know what a healthy relationship is supposed to look like and I don't know what healthy love looks like yeah and so if he tells me, like this is love, and this is what love is supposed to be like, and it's so you feel good in that moment.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, you're like, your brain is like give me more, give me more absolutely.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:And so, like once I was fully attached, he was like, okay, we're going to cut ties with that other woman. And now I have you to myself and a few months later I had filed for divorce and it took him another two years and in that time, like there was a period where I like packed up all this stuff and I was like you need to like either get divorced or like we're not doing this anymore because I don't, like, I don't want us to be having an affair and this doesn't feel like an equitable, like polyamorous setup, like with your wife.
Jennifer Walter:If it's no longer, if it's no longer feeling aligned and good, for whatever reason, you gotta change something yeah, I'm curious, like you said. You said something very interesting, right like this as soon as he kind of like had you in his like unhealthy attachment, kind of like lock or grip, he started cutting ties, which we said before isolation, probably one of the big telltale signs of abusive relationships in your experience. What were other early warning signs of unhealthy attachment forming?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:talking about deep cosmic world, shifting love within two weeks of meeting somebody. That's, that's too much. Um, like I love a lot, like I still fall in love easily. I love a lot of things like I. I think my partner and I I love it about me. I love that I'm a very soft, loving, kind person.
Jennifer Walter:Yes, 100%.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:And it's very easy, like after abuse, to just like cut that part of yourself off and be like, well, I'm not going to trust anybody ever again, and that that to me is death. Like I can't do that I. I love people and like my partner and I, we said I love you within like two or three weeks. Um, but it wasn't like oh my god, you've changed my whole life kind of love. It was like this is awesome, I love you let's let's have more of this.
Jennifer Walter:This feels awesome.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Let's have more of this yes, um, meanwhile, with the abusive partner, like we got a tattoo after a month like a matching tattoo, and he's telling me all this like, like, like second chance at life stuff, like really, really deep, huge emotions and that's a red flag.
Jennifer Walter:Um, yeah, I think it's. Maybe it's not just like the deep emotion per se, but if someone like he's, he's already like setting setting you up right, like if he's not, if this, if this is not working out and you weren't a second chance, it was your fault, like it's already, kind of like priming how it potentially could go.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I actually forgot part of part of this, but he um, so he was older, he was 41 when we got together and he's diabetic and so like very early on, he's you know we're having a heartfelt conversation and he's like you know, I just want you to know going in, like I'm older, I already have health issues like my diabetes could get worse. I have, you know, like he's giving me, like medical issues and things here's my medical history, right like here's my family.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:As a 40 year old person, I do feel that, yes, like we, yes, yes, I do have a medical history okay uh, and he basically like wanted me to say, like well, I'll be with you, like in sickness or in health, but like within a very short amount of time. And I did say that because at the time I'm like I love you, I'm gonna be with you no matter what, like health is not a factor in falling in love or not? Falling in love with this man.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Um, but then setting up a codependent, like a beard, is on, like dynamic and setting up what he's going to attack me about if I leave, which is, oh, you were supposed to be my second chance, and now I've spent so long with you that there's nobody out there. There's no third chance for me and I'm just gonna die alone, sick and sad you were set.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, I mean it was a setup to fail yes, like setting up scaffolding, that like if at any point I say I don't want to be in this relationship anymore, that's gonna reflect on me and be my fault that will tell more about the kind of person you are than what kind of person he is.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Basically, yeah, yeah, it is um, which also like kind of comes back to like his mask off moment where he's he's just enraged that I would consider sleeping with another person. Um, and he just he got a story, a narrative in his head and committed to it, and that story was caitlin is cheating on me, um, and also caitlin is on medication that is changing their personality. I was on lexapro. Like 10 milligrams of lexapro. It is a very basic antidepressant.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, and even if it were, to be so that it caused some mood changes in you.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Whatever like, right so what he picked up, like my bottle of pills, and he said this might be the best thing that ever happened to you and the worst thing that ever happened to me. That was like a charming fella. That is so much drama, like that is just an unhinged thing to say to a person who is on a very light antidepressant that is not hurting them in any way. Like I was fine. I just stopped putting up with like his gaslighting because I could see it for what it was with the antidepressant, like kind of like the fogginess cleared and he had spent at this point like four years, um, like actively like abusing and gaslighting me mentally on a routine basis and I didn't know which way was up and like yeah, I stopped like in height, like in retrospect.
Jennifer Walter:Were you able to piece together like how, like which gaslighting episodes kind of like eroded your sense of reality, when you said everyone was kind of like loopy and upside down oh yeah, let's see.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Okay, there was a lot around my diet and eating disorder. Um, so at the time I was in this relationship, I was also, um, like my eating disorder was reaching a peak. Um, I was working out a lot, like one or two hours a day, I was distance running and I was like severely limiting my calories and going on like all kinds of extreme diets. And I think like one of the first times I like went gluten-free or something he came home with like bread waffles, like all sorts of stuff that like I couldn't have and like that's fine, like if he's going to eat it. But because I wasn't eating any carbs, I was insane and so I was like, oh my God, these waffles, like we're going to die, like I'm not well and I understand that this is unhinged behavior. But he like yelled at me about it and he got like very upset that I had any kind of reaction. And then later I was on like a completely like no sugar cleanse thing and he bought me a candy bar for when I was done and I'm like that's not helpful.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, so like the diet was a very easy place to gaslight me and also that was one of the reasons that he said we didn't have sex was because I got up to work out in the morning and so if I got up, like if I woke up and tried to initiate sex, he would reject me and then later, like, tell our therapist that it's because he cares about my workouts and I'm like I. That doesn't make any sense because, like I'm a, I'm a grown-ass adult and I can manage my own time. But okay, um, I had another good one and then it left that's okay, maybe we'll come later or not, it'll come, it'll come later.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, it's, it's really so. When, how did you kind of like go? You went through this period of abuse, multi-level abuse, right, and especially with gaslighting I I know from my personal experience it just really it. It alters your, it alters yourself, it alters your brain chemistry. You really have to like piece yourself together again. What was, what was that process like for you? The piecing back together the caitlyn piece, puzzle pieces?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:so that didn't happen for me until after I left and is like still happening. Like this is this is going to be work that I'm doing for the rest of my life? Um, but within within a couple months of leaving him, I had made new friends. Um, I went to pride. Oh, there was one, he. He always talked me out of going to pride events. Um, I'm bisexual, um, and he would say I don't think you're bisexual, I think you're just Caitlin sexual, like you. Just think that you're pretty, and so you look at yourself in the mirror just caitlin sexual, like you just think that you're pretty, and so you look at yourself in the mirror.
Jennifer Walter:Um, what does that have to do with you like a?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:whole section. And then he would also say like no, I take your bisexuality very seriously. That's twice the people that you could leave me for so like.
Jennifer Walter:He's just constantly like yeah, also very red flag thingy to say it is.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:that's very disturbing, like if this relationship isn't built on trust and like you think I'm just gonna see somebody and leave, like that's telling on yourself that's not about anything that I have done, because I haven't done that.
Jennifer Walter:So you went to Pride then.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah. So I went to Pride because he would always say like, oh, but like, like it's so hot and it's so crowded and you don't like crowds and you don't like the traffic and like all these things are true, I don't like the crowds, I don't like traffic, I don't like to be sweaty, but I deal with it so that I can see a bunch of glittery gay people and like we're the higher good of it all. I right, take it home. It's something that I really like. And so I went to my like my second pride ever after I left him, and the first one was right before I met him and I went with that girlfriend that he broke me up with full circle full circle.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Um, it's like I went to pride and my sister was in town and they were like I gotta be honest, kate, like I used to think that you were kind of a bitch and now I think that you were just being abused because my personality was so different to my own sister, like to my sister.
Jennifer Walter:Wow.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Um, because my like, they lived with us for a while. So I say sister, but we both use they them pronouns. So it's weird because sister is a gendered word. But, um, so they lived with us, me and this abusive partner, um, for a few months after college. Okay, to like save up before their next move. And um, he was very much like they can't have company over, like they have to be quiet. Very strict rules, very like strict rules, and it was, it was weird and controlling, but he would never talk to them directly. So like I had to deliver all these, all these rules, and be like no, like you can't have anybody over, you're the male person yes, and so it's.
Jennifer Walter:That's now straining the relationship between me and my sibling and like by the time they left, they yeah, I mean it's aware he's, he's, yeah, he probably was very good at like, oh, another wedge and a hammer extremely good at just driving little wedges, um, but yeah, that was like.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Probably the biggest thing is I left him in march 2018 and so then in june, when my sister was there, being like you, you're completely different. I don't know this version of you and I'm excited to get to know this version of you, and I have been putting myself together for the past six years wow, yeah, kudos, and lots of love to you, but this is long fucking ass time it's yeah, it's difficult and I still will find things that are buried inside my brain that like activate him and I'll have to be like, okay, all right, I'm having like, I'm having a little moment, I gotta calm down.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:This is cool and my partner is so amazing. I can talk to him about anything, and so if I'm just like, hey, I'm having the thought about my abuser, like can we talk it out? Like he just listens and he's not hoarding the story to use as ammo later, like he never throws it back at me, I don't have to keep track of anything or like worry that he's going to get mad. That sense of like, like safety and relief.
Jennifer Walter:So you don't have to be on your guard like all the time. Right Like so your nervous system can actually like.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, and I don't think I've ever felt like this safe before in my life, in my life. So, like you know, having relational safety for only like five years of 36 is pretty sad, not the best. Uh, it is what it is right like there is no changing in that realize I try to give myself grace about it and like because this?
Jennifer Walter:was. This is not. No, I mean, this is not your fault, right, like you had people failing you, yeah, but even even that it's so hard because I have this, this thing, in my head.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:That's like, well, you, you shouldn't have fallen for it, or you, it shouldn't have affected you. This, you're a smart cookie. You shouldn't have fallen for it. Right, right, like you're smart, you're a smart person. How did you fall for this?
Jennifer Walter:and it's like, well, I fell for it because I had emotionally abusive parents and I didn't know what the fuck I was doing yeah, that's the thing, right, like I feel what a lot of people who've never experienced abusive relationships of any kind I mean, it could be romantic relationship. Abusive relationships also happen at work, um, with your parents, like with whomever, right? Um, I I feel what a lot of these people don't don't understand, or it's really hard to understand, which also ties in into this whole thing of like. But why didn't she just leave? Yeah, right, it's not a brain thing, it's not a brain matter, it's not a logic matter, it's not a smartness iq matter, right, it's. They know.
Jennifer Walter:Specifically, it's kind of like when I I had an abusive boss once and it took me a while to realize, like when she looked at me, she didn't see, see me, she just saw like Achilles heels, like weaknesses, like oh damn target, like mother wound, like trying to increase self esteem through doing more damn attack, like it was this map of things to attack to kind of like ledge onto, like like a little slug eelish thingy yeah, that's so real, like they can read you like a book they're good people readers.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:They just read your negative shit, which is awesome, yeah and also like I think so I'm also autistic and like a people pleaser and I don't like to be rejected, so I go out of my way to be nice and accommodating and like um another, like probably the red flag from this relationship was that we had one date and then he texted me to cancel our second date and he said that it was too one-sided and like he didn't want to, he didn't want to pursue this further because I wasn't like matching his energy, basically Like he was more into me than I was into him, and I was like, oh, he misunderstood, like I must have been too shy, right.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:So I took it upon myself to reconvince him that I was interested and I feel, like any person who's going to tell me like what my energy is and how I feel, as like a cancellation thing, right, like we're not moving forward with this because you don't like me. Mm-hmm, that is an unconfirmed hypothesis, but I just bent over backwards to convince him that I liked him and that was like the first big hook.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, I feel like this was already kind of like I don't know a pity play right, Kind of like exploiting your compassion, Like, oh, you don't love me as much as I love you.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah it, it really was, and he had already come in and been like, if you are willing to like go up a little bit from your age like limit, I would love to take you out to lunch. Like he started, very like acknowledging my boundary as he overstepped it. Yeah, cause I think I had it set.
Jennifer Walter:I love it Acknowledging a boundary while overstepping it Right.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:It must've been set from like like 23 to 35 or something, I don't know, a reasonable age gap. And then he comes in just a few years over and it's like our age gap could vote, buddy, like you are old enough to like be my father. Technically, uh, it's.
Jennifer Walter:and it's just if you're. I don't know if you're younger than us listening. It's a really hard thing to grasp that there is an unequal power dynamic with a big age gap. It just fucking is.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, and I got a lot of heat, uh, on threads. I actually think that's how you and I met is I started posting about like age gaps and saying that like just because she's legal doesn't mean it's not abusive or doesn't mean it's not grooming oh, I think.
Jennifer Walter:Yes, I think that was the one I'm like people were that girl's right, that chick is right, and everyone was like then I'm like it was just even an argument. How is this even an argument?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I know and people are like so you're removing grown adult women's autonomy by saying that they can't choose their partners. I'm like that's not what I said. I'm talking about his behavior. I'm talking about his behavior. I want to know why he's so interested in somebody who's 19, 21, 23. I really am curious what he has in common with her. Yeah, uh, because it's not what they have in common. It's how easy she will be to mold to his own whims and like the more naive the better. The fresher out of like their nuclear family, the better.
Jennifer Walter:Like the more life experience somebody has also, the more likelihood is that she earns less money than you do. Right, like all these things and then right, okay.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:So say say you're 40 and you want to date a 20 year old lady yeah and she's young and she doesn't make a ton of money because she's just about to finish school or something and then she gets pregnant. It's a very easy ask to be like well, you're already like only making half what I make. Why don't you just stay home with the baby?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I feel we're going into trad wife territory now and I'm already like, yeah, it kind of is, because, like the, like red pill, the trad wife thing, like the incel thing, like all of this is about women should serve men and it's fucked up that they can tell me no yeah, any guy who doesn't but they can. Yeah, any guy who doesn't let you tell him no is a walking red flag.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:And like that's a great sort of test, like at the beginning of a relationship. It's like disagree about something very low stakes, like Star Wars. You know that's a good thing.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, that's a good hack Disagree. Oh, you like the. I don't know new york rangers, uh no, I do not.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:No, yeah, like just see how that person reacts to being disagreed with. And this whole time I've been using like very heteronormative language and saying like he for the abuser and she for the victim, because, like the majority of cases, are that gender dynamic, yes, but like abuse is not just a heterosexual problem, uh, and it's not just like a male problem yeah, 100 I have been abused by by women, men and non-binary people. So it's, it is the gender, gender activity.
Jennifer Walter:I mean, you're either an asshole or you're not. This has nothing to do with.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Chanitalia you're either an asshole or you're not.
Jennifer Walter:That's beautiful and everyone has one. You should make t-shirts Sydney Ground merch shop coming soon. Yes, you're either an asshole or you're not. I mean it's basically yeah, but this, uh, this is yeah. I mean this goes to like basic, like the basic, I don't. I was once on a podcast and someone asked me um, okay, like what's your like basic, like leadership principle or something like that, and my answer really was, and still is just don't be an asshole. I love that. It's really fucking simple, yeah.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I think my mind would be don't, don't fall into the trap of trying to convince someone to understand you, yeah okay, that's. That's very boxy, but yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, I'll work on it, but like, yeah, like the wording, like that's not a t-shirt that's. It's not a t-shirt I'll work on.
Jennifer Walter:It's not a t-shirt cape yeah, but we can work on that.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I know what you mean, yeah yeah, it's like what he did with that like second date, saying like, well, you're not into me, I if, if I met him today and he did that, I would be like, oh, enjoy your day, see you. Never Wouldn't occur to me to be like, oh no, please, let me tell you how much I really love you.
Jennifer Walter:This reminds me of one of my favorite. Like my mother tongue is German. This reminds me of one of my favorite. Like my mother tongue is German and one of my favorite sayings that I use a lot is which kind of like translates to like go with God, but just fucking go.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Oh, that's so good, oh, I just like, I like that Godspeed, but just go Like, go, yeah, yeah it. It's like I want you to eat, but not at my table.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, yeah, 100% Like yeah.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Don't let.
Jennifer Walter:Dora hit you on the way out.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, I really like that. You're gonna have to. Can you like DM me the spelling on that phrase so I can write it down?
Jennifer Walter:yeah, yeah, maybe that's, oh, maybe. Look see, that's maybe a merch idea. You know weird swiss german sayings for american people. That's fantastic you know, like, like yeah, right, like how, the way the in the weird sense, like how we print chinese and japanese things on our t-shirts and bodies, like without knowing what it means.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yes, oh my god. Yeah like oh, look what this means. It means strength, and then it means like beer in the fridge or something yeah, oh my god.
Jennifer Walter:I'm so glad that I've never gotten like in the height of the 2000s. I'm so glad I never got a Chinese letter.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I'm proud of you, yeah.
Jennifer Walter:Not saying that. This to prove a point that I'm better. I'm just glad I never did yeah.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I mean, I did a lot of dumb shit, but not that I did a lot of dumb shit too.
Jennifer Walter:Such as marrying this guy.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, then again, I mean yeah, yeah, we also tried to get pregnant. Like I wanted to have this man's baby real bad and then that actually was a big factor in me realizing that I wanted to leave him because I was like he's not going to help with a baby and I already have to do so much work just for him with a man child. Yeah, because like he would tell me at like bedtime that he needed a pair of pants clean for the next day at work and then I would stay up late to do his laundry. He didn't do his own laundry for like the four years we lived together. He cooked like five meals in four years. I was doing the cooking cleaning. He had four chores that he only did to about 62 capacity and he was like you want to talk about like weaponized incompetence.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:He was like the SWAT team of incompetence like weaponized incompetence.
Jennifer Walter:I fucking hate it. Oh, this is one of the Fred shitty storms. I got in where I was like since when is like cooking not a life skill but like a gendered skill? Like no, you should be able to feed yourself.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:You should, or you should at least like know like basic stuff, like boil water add.
Jennifer Walter:Well, I don't ask if you to like make cheese fondue or chateaubriand or whatever fuck, but you have to feed yourself.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, like that's yeah, yeah, my partner, now he, he cooks. We could love this for you. I know me too. We split the cooking, probably like 50, 50, like honestly, um, and we both can just like if we get to the end of the day and we don't want to, I'll be like I don't want to cook tonight and if he also doesn't want to cook tonight, then we probably order something or we eat yeah, yeah, butter sandwiches yeah, just fan fend around the house, fanned, fanned fend yeah, oh it's because you said sandwiches and I was processing the word sandwiches, so I was gonna say fanned, which is oh got it.
Jennifer Walter:I'm good we call it already like I'm, I'm like my english vocabulary isn't that bad, but what the hell is she talking about now?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:So I live with three other people. I live with my partner and then his roommate from college. They have lived together for like 12 years now.
Jennifer Walter:Wow.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:We joke that they are husbands Fair. And like when I first started dating my partner, like the first time I came over to like spend the night on a weekend, the roommate was like, so this is a package deal, and when you want to move in with him, I'm coming too. And I was like, okay, and we bought a house. Like it's just, that's the package deal. And then they have another friend from college who was previously living with her sister and wanted to move out on her own and she kind of lacks that cooking skill. She can feed herself and not die, but like I wouldn't call it cuisine. So she does DIY projects and we make sure she eats meals and that sounds like a fairish trade-off.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:It's a pretty fairish trade-off. Yeah, it is, we've all got. We've all got something, many of all the things that are broken in the house get fixed.
Jennifer Walter:We're like a meal.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:We also have a lot of adhd in the house, so like pexed for like a meal. We also have a lot of ADHD in the house, so like it might get fixed.
Jennifer Walter:So you're definitely in your spicy household.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Oh so spicy. Except for her, because she's allergic to peppers. Can't eat spicy food Spicy mayo at a sushi restaurant is too much for her.
Jennifer Walter:Oh man.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:I'm like I could eat spicy mayo with a spoon, yeah, but that's kind of like my, my toxic trait.
Jennifer Walter:I'm always like give me the wasabi, like I can eat a lot of wasabi and then I'm like my partner will be like, can I have your wasabi too?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:and like he will get multiple people's wasabi and he is having the time of his life and then he has to take tums because you know he's in his 30s now yeah, this is what's very sad.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, I know, I know I had to like I stopped drinking.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Um, I only drink like very occasionally, like socially, like if we're doing cocktails, or like at new year's eve or whatever, because it makes me too hot like I have one like I like one drink body temperature and you're sweating, I am sweating and so uncomfortable, and so I was like I don't like how that feels, so I'm not gonna maybe it's the histamines maybe it's a type of alcohol. It is worse with wine yeah, then check into histamines red wine then it's histamine.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, that's rough. The vodka is good though.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Vodka is good. Yeah, like a mixed drink I can have like one or two before I'm feeling uncomfortable, but like one glass of wine and I feel like somebody has like put a heater on my head.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, yeah, I have this with like really strong red wine and I'm like too much, too much man and friends would be like, oh, you don't look fine. I'm like, yeah, maybe I would be have some flushed, like flushed cheeks or like, yeah, lots here on my but I would totally look fine, but I feel like I'm like melting.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:the discomfort is so much and I like I am not here for things that are uncomfortable for me. No, Like this is one of the glorious things.
Jennifer Walter:with growing older, it's like not available for this anymore.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:That has been like a struggle for me. Like it's very easy to say, oh, I don't do things that make me uncomfortable. But like having hard conversations and ending friendships and like moving on from, from things that do not serve me, that is hard. Like leaving a comfort zone is hard, yes, but then it's very rewarding afterward. So True, so true, Like because I've been in friendships that were like really uncomfortable and I was like I don't feel. I don't feel like this is like reciprocated energy. I'm not feeling super comfortable with you, but like obviously you're getting something out of this. So like should I try harder and then eventually, when I decide, no, I'm going to end this friendship, I feel better, but it still sucks. That like like I hurt somebody's feelings. So I'm working on that.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, like I don't know if it ever goes away, right, Like when I think about a relationship with my mother, like it still hurts, it's still sad, it's still all things and at the same time I know I'm a better person now and I don't want to go back. So both things are equally true and I'm building capacity to hold both.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:That that's so important. Because I'm the same, I don't talk to either of my parents. I've reached out and like sent my dad a couple emails, but I don't think that's going to result in a rekindled relationship. Because, because I don't, but like I know that my mother and I could be such great friends if, like she didn't have so much resentment about having children tied up in everything she says to me, like she can't uncouple, like her trauma from my existence and like I'm not gonna stick around so that she can just keep re-traumatizing me like I gotta go. I gotta go be a person. Like when you have a child, you are there to like guide and help them be a person, but also like their personality is theirs. Like you can't make your kid behave a certain way, or like be a certain person or have a certain interest.
Jennifer Walter:As long as they're kids, you technically can make them.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:You can them, you can a lot of people do make them but and then once they're an adult and they're like I'm gonna do what my passion is, then the parents are gone. So like confused, like I didn't raise you like this, and it's like, yes, and that hurt me. I want, I gotta be me like I'm queer, I'm fat, I am very like outspoken, I talk about things that matter super sensitive like I am.
Jennifer Walter:I, I am super sensitive I am a soft bunny and I actually have it on my website. I think this is the favorite, the most favorite thing I've, best thing I've ever wrote, and like the footer. You know how people sometimes have like in a footer like a short statement about themselves. I have, uh, like I'm gonna read it now because I'm a sucker like jennifer walters is sociologist, pathfinder and equal parts rebel and marshmallow. Oh, she makes brands do better and humans feel better on their scenic route to a softer life. Oh, I love that. Right, thank you for getting it.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Yeah, I say that I am your honorary big sibster oh, it is nice too. Yeah, it's like I'm gonna tell you like, go for that big audacious thing that you've never said out loud like I'm gonna help you believe in yourself, like I'm gonna hold the vision for that future when you are crumbling, shaking mess, because you know we, we're all crumbling, shaking mess sometimes.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah sure so if anyone is needing, in need of a big sis, where can they find you, caitlin?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:they can find me all around the interwebs. Primarily, I am most active on threads, so you can DM me on Instagram and follow me on threads. I am at Caitlin Liz Fisher and then I also have various websites, but I would direct you to askfishfishercom.
Jennifer Walter:Good, we're going to link that one in the show notes. Perfect. I always have one last question before I let each and anyone of my guests off the hook what book are you currently reading, or what audio book you're currently listening to?
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Because audio books are books too.
Jennifer Walter:people shut up they are.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:So I'm actually currently reading a manuscript of one of my clients. She has just started querying her novel to find an agent and I am doing like a a last kind of like once over. I'm reading the whole story start to finish, because I've only seen it in like chapters that she submits for critique. Oh right, yeah, okay, yeah, and I'm like I want to read the whole thing because I'm pretty sure I have but out of order and so I want to read the whole thing, because I'm pretty sure I have, but out of order, and so now I get to read a book.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Oh, this is cool. Yes, so because I'm a book coach and I help people write books. So if anybody out there is wanting to write a book, you should definitely reach out to me.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, we might talk again at some point. You got a book in there. Yeah, I feel like there's a book scratching like let me out, let me out. That's my specialty, but I don't know. I don't know if, if it's truly the right face right now, or if this is just something my brain tells me, or whatever the fuck is going on, but right now I'm I'm still favoring a bit the spoken word, hence the podcast.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, but I feel there's a book. There's a book somewhere in there, yeah, about mothers and shit. Yeah, mothers and shit.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Keep an eye on it. That's definitely in my wheelhouse so I can help with that.
Jennifer Walter:Perfect.
Caitlin Liz Fisher:Caitlin, thank you so much for being on the Cine Group with me. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited.
Jennifer Walter:And just like that, we've reached the end of another journey together on the Cine Group podcast. Thank you for spending time with us. Curious for more stories or in search of the resources mentioned in today's episode, visit us at scenigroupodcastcom for everything you need and if you're ready to embrace your scenigroup, I've got something special for you. Step off the beaten path with my scenigroup affirmation card deck. It's crafted for those moments when you're seeking courage, yearning to trust your inner voice and eager to carve out a path authentically, unmistakably yours. Pick your scenic route affirmation today and let it support you. Excited about where your journey might lead, I certainly am. Remember, the scenic route is not just about the destination, but the experiences, learnings and joy we discover along the way. Thank you for being here and I look forward to seeing you on the scenic route again.
