Scenic Route, Social Change and Mental Health Conversations for Perfectionists
Forget the fast lane! The Scenic Route is where perfectionists slow down, get better, and create real change.
We explore:
- Mental health wisdom (minus toxic positivity)
- Social change (that starts from within)
- System critiques (with actionable solutions)
- Inner wisdom (over external validation)
- Mindfulness for minimalists (no crystals required)
Join Jennifer Walter, sociologist (MASoc UCC) and recovering perfectionist, for weekly conversations that blend critical thinking with oh-so-much compassion.
Whether you're questioning everything or trying to find peace amongst the chaos, you'll find space here for your inner voice, mindset, mental health, and collective change — you're in the right place. We make space for both personal healing and collective change — with a side of potty humour.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
The longest way round is the shortest way home – and that's exactly why we're taking the Scenic Route.
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Scenic Route, Social Change and Mental Health Conversations for Perfectionists
Breaking Society's Binary: A Revolutionary Tale of Gender Identity & Freedom with Don Mamone
In this transformative episode, identity coach and speaker Don Mamone (they/them/theirs) shares their powerful journey beyond society's gender binary. From navigating privilege to embracing radical freedom, Don reveals the profound costs and unexpected rewards of choosing authenticity over conformity.
Don challenges us to examine how binary thinking limits not just gender expression but every aspect of our lives. They illuminate the path from fear to liberation through their experience of coming out at 45 and building a life of unapologetic self-expression in Texas (USA).
Key Discussion Points:
- Understanding gender identity, expression, and the limitations of binary thinking
- Navigating the journey from conformity to freedom
- Creating safe spaces in a heteronormative world
- The real cost of authenticity and the rewards of living truthfully
- Breaking cycles of performative behaviour through deliberate practice
Whether you're questioning your identity, seeking to be a better ally, or looking to break free from society's boxes, Don's story offers profound insights into embracing your truth and creating positive change.
Join us on the scenic route.
Connect with Don Mamone
Website
Instagram
LinkedIn
Download Don's practical guide to gender. This one is for anyone interested in learning more about gender, expression, and authenticity.
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The words we use build our world, but hey, what happens when society's words don't fit with who you truly are? Today I sit down with Don Mamoni, whose journey challenges us to rethink everything we assume about gender identity and auticity in a world built on conformity. If you've ever questioned the cost of being truly yourself, this episode is for you. Don shares raw insights about breaking free from the gender binary, the price of choosing authenticity over privilege and creating safer spaces in a heteronormative world. From exploring gender identity to discussing what freedom really means, this conversation is an act of rebellion wrapped in vulnerability and truth. Whether you're questioning your own identity or seeking to be a better ally, dawn's story will challenge, inspire and maybe even change how you see yourself and others. So stay with us for an episode that proves why the scenic route, your authentic path, is the only way forward. Hi and welcome to the Scenic Routeot Podcast, where we believe in embracing life's journey with purpose, curiosity and a bit of potty humor. I'm sMom and I'm always looking out for that perfect slice of gluten-free rhubarb pie. Every week, I get the joy of sitting down with dreamers and doers who dare to take the road less traveled in pursuit of their own magic. Together, we dive into the inspiring stories of soulful entrepreneurs and visionary leaders who boldly share their beliefs, lessons and fuck-ups. Excited, so am I. You're exactly where you're meant to be, and now let's take this conversation off the beaten track.
Jennifer Walter:Don Mamone is a speaker, identity coach and consultant, teaching audiences and clients how to reach their maximum potential and impact by discovering and embracing their true identity, and supporting companies dedicated to safe spaces that support unapologetic authenticity. When they are not traveling the world for creative projects and speeches, dawn lives happily outside the gender binary in Dallas, texas, with their talented spouse Emily and their creative child Frankie. Today, I'm really excited to talk to you about the relationship we have with ourselves, with our identity, and how this is all untangled with our self-esteem and self-worth and all of that. But before I feel it's really important to. I feel it's really important to because a big part of how we identify ourselves is true gender, and I would like to kind of like have us all a better understanding of what gender is, what it isn't and why using an inclusive and precise language matters. Do you want to take this away, Don? Great questions.
Don Mamone:Yes, I'm absolutely happy to take it from there. When I introduce myself, I say that I'm Don and my pronouns are they them, and that I'm a professional speaker and identity coach and an author, and the they them. Part of my introduction is a reference to my gender identity, and I think that one of the most important things that we get to acknowledge with regards to gender is the outdated, short-sighted binary that is a social construct. It's something that was created, that is based entirely on, basically, your anatomy at birth is just that outdated and short-sighted. The intricacies, the tapestry of human gender is way too complicated to just reduce it down to either this or that, and so I'm going to take your audience on a quick medical slash scientific journey Now don't freak out.
Don Mamone:I don't want anybody to freak out. I say medical and science and they kind of tune out. This is going to be very quick, not all my baits your audience is brave, I feel them sitting down and being ready.
Don Mamone:You know gender has four sort of base elements that I like to introduce people to. First, you have your gender identity. Your gender identity is what you know yourself to be in your head and in your heart. A quick kind of side, a casual aside on this scenic route that we're going to drive when we talk about gender identity, you'll largely hear people talk about being cisgender and transgender. Cisgender means that you perfectly align with your gender assigned at birth, and transgender, or gender non-conforming or non-binary, means you don't align with your gender assigned at birth. So that's your gender identity.
Don Mamone:The next step you have is your gender expression. Now, that's how you choose to share your gender identity with the world. The clothes you wear, the makeup you wear, the accessories that you wear, how you cut your hair and style your hair, it it's basically your style, your vibe. That's your gender expression. You have your sexual orientation, which is who you're attracted to. And I say attracted to. You notice I didn't say your sexual orientation. It's your orientation from the perspective of. It is your romantic, physical, emotional, psychological. There's lots of ways to be attracted to someone. So it's your orientation, oftentimes sexual, sometimes otherwise. And then, lastly, you do have your anatomical sex, which is your sex assigned at birth based on your anatomy.
Don Mamone:The reason it's so important to answer your question, jennifer, is because in a world where we largely have constructed society around a false binary, there aren't a lot of safe spaces for people like me, and when I say people like me, I mean anybody who is either transgender or gender nonconforming. So something as simple as using a bathroom, something as simple as going into a store and trying on clothes those things that I think a lot of people largely take for granted are very uncomfortable and oftentimes fraught with challenge in a binary system, and so I think it's time that we start looking at gender identity and the other three elements and saying how can we elevate our thought and I think a lot of people are how can we elevate our thought? Not to be reductive, not to remove man or woman. Men and women are amazing. It's additive, we are adding on things and we're moving from a gender binary to a gender spectrum, and that's kind of where we're at yeah, I think this is such an important last point you made there.
Jennifer Walter:Right, it's an inclusive language and it doesn't. It doesn't just include gender, but it's always the. The underlying truth is to add on to the vocabulary, not to take away from because I sometimes get these I don't know tiktoks for you pages with these like oh I cannot Call myself woman anymore. I have to refer to myself as person With uterus and I'm like yeah.
Jennifer Walter:Nothing of this. We're not taking anything Away how anyone wants to see Themselves, but it's crucial to be Precise, even also, especially with medical terms, when we talk about care, for example.
Don Mamone:Yes, when we talk about so, first of all, I think that that we develop our identities based on two sort of buckets. Right, you have your personal development, which is internal and individualistic, and then you have social participation. So I had a coming out journey that took me a very, very long time. I came out to the world at the ripe age of 45. And the you notice I didn't say ripe old age, no, no, 45. It's a wonderful place to be.
Jennifer Walter:That's a prime. It's the prime age.
Don Mamone:It is the 40s. Are the new 30s or the 20s? I?
Jennifer Walter:don't know. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Don Mamone:I'm happy to have gone on a journey of personal development in accepting and acknowledging who I am. The social participation part is very hard because of the, I think, misrepresentation or mischaracterization and the lack of understanding and the lack of use of language. That creates safe spaces for me, and I think you're right. When it comes to medical care, when it comes to how people identify, when it comes to how people want to interact with the world around them, it requires open hearts and open minds by both parties, and I think everybody who's listening to the sound of my voice right now acknowledges that as humans, we're hardwired to compartmentalize and to categorize the world around us. I totally get that.
Don Mamone:Where we have a problem is is when someone tries to categorize or label me into a container in which I do not fit. They try to jam me, squeeze me, push me into that space, and that's not where I fit. That is not the best container for me, and so, rather than opening their belief system and saying, okay, well, let's learn more about what the container would look like that I would get to fit Dawn into, they just kind of close their minds and their hearts and they say, nope, not going to have it. And I get it. It's simpler, it's easier. It's what they've always known. People don't like to challenge their belief systems, whatever. But the thing about it is is I'm not going to go away and I'm no longer going to be shoved into that uncomfortable, ill fitting container, which means we're at an impasse and we get to work through that that this is, yeah, like we as a, like a society as a whole, we have to work through this, especially, as you said in the beginning, right it?
Jennifer Walter:the whole binary, this by this head, like this cis normativity and this binary there we have intersex people like it's not something that is just very clear in terms of pure biology. Right, it's right, there is so much, there's such a bandwidth, so we really, yeah, have to be inclusive of and I think the way we talk, I always say words build worlds and it's just such a critical piece that whenever we, yeah, we think about how we use it and me, my native tongue is german and we have this absolute clusterfuck that we we cannot yet, or haven't yet, really untangled sex from the language. It's a nightmare. So we have to be really mindful of what you said about putting people in boxes. Is it necessary for me, in this conversation, to put a person into a box so I can interact with them?
Don Mamone:I don't think it's necessary. I think it ushers forth comfort, right and so, and, and you know who's male, assigned at birth, who clearly is not making any effort or attempt to pass as either gender, because I genuinely know in my heart and in my head from the age of five years old that I'm both, that I get to be both, that there's both inside of me. I feel like it's 90% woman. Other times I feel like it's 90% man. It doesn't matter the ratio. What matters is that I exist, that I get to be accepted and I get to be respected.
Don Mamone:But it's muscle memory for that person to look at me and say something like yes, sir, or no sir, or he's over there. And then you say, well, I would, really, you know my pronouns, are they them? It honors my identity. Well, I would really, you know my pronouns, are they them? It honors my identity. Well, I can't use they them because it's not a singular pronoun. Well, actually, it is a singular pronoun. People who have used singular pronoun they them for generations, for millennium, but we can talk about that later. It's really that sort of inability to put forth effort and intention to work against the muscle memory. There's always going to be haters and there's always going to be skeptics. There's always going to be people that think that they can still say that the earth is flat. They can still say that-.
Jennifer Walter:Climate change is a hoax. Climate change is a hoax.
Don Mamone:There's countless times, and I actually refer back to science a lot of time, because the scientific method is a beautiful thing. If you ever talk to a scientist, a scientist isn't necessarily hoping to be proven wrong, but they're open to and completely willing to acknowledge if they're proven wrong, because the scientific method is based on making a statement, testing that statement, finding out whether or not it's true and if it's true, great, we test again. Otherwise, we go back to the drawing board and say, well, we were wrong. It's flat out, we were wrong. And I think that that's a wonderful place to be, because it means that you're constantly challenging your belief system. You're constantly looking for new and different ways to say. That's really interesting.
Don Mamone:I didn't know that and now that I do, I get to change my words that are going to build worlds and my behavior that is going to be inclusive, to make sure that this person feels seen, loved, accepted, understood, and it's really genuinely important. Because here's the thing and, audience members, take a moment, I'm going to blow your mind. When I talk about the binary, I very infrequently focus first on the gender binary. I mean, I do when I tell my story and I do when I talk about my existence, but when I coach and when I talk to people about identity, it's an awful place to put yourself to feel like your identity gets to be binary. How many people right now that's listening to this podcast felt like they got to either be a good parent or a corporate employee?
Jennifer Walter:Yeah.
Don Mamone:Or they got to be a good spouse or a good worker, or they got to be this or that. You're constantly needing to decide between two things and psychologically that's called the false dichotomy. You put yourself in a position where, number one you're forced to make a choice. Number one you're forced to make a choice. Number two you're forced to make that choice between two things when in actuality there's probably way more option than the two things. And the coolest thing ever is we get to create both and worlds right. So it's not even finding the best two things to pick between or to choose among. If you have more than two, it's that you get to say I get to be an amazing parent and contribute to the finances of our home by having a job Right. And that's when I think people's mind open. They're like, oh, wow, so this isn't just about Dawn and their identity, we're talking about everyone's. It's a really beautiful, freeing way to look at the world yes, and it's really it's not.
Jennifer Walter:I truly believe the cause of rebelling against the binary is freedom for us all, because we all, as you've said, we all have things where we're like I. I don't want to do this, but I feel, as you've said, um identity is formed through personal, like personal development in first seven years, mostly the formative years, and all your social interactions family, school, friends and so on, and the media, and it's like I don't want to be that I have been given a hard time because I don't know I was not performing as, however, I don't know a fat person supposed to perform, or a loving mother, or a good daughter or whatever the fuck it is. Just stay tired of it.
Don Mamone:Yeah, perceptions are largely formed based on our influences and experiences from childhood, and what you said was, like most, most of our identity is formed by the age of seven and I think the struggle with that and something that that I've experienced and how I've chosen to write about it those formative years, those impressionable young years we're missing two really important things when our identity is being formed and as we then take that forward to adolescence and adulthood is a voice and a choice. No seven-year-old gets to look at their parent and be like you know. I think your perspectives on the LGBTQ community are cute and I understand that they're rooted in your religion, but I'm sorry, that's not how I feel.
Don Mamone:No young person typically has both the courage or the insight to do that. And once it's formed and once it's ingrained in you and once you start to carry that through life, once you find the conflict. And once you start to carry that through life, once you find the conflict and my favorite example of it is the number of people that I've met that came from someplace that was maybe a little bit smaller and a little bit more sheltered and had, I think, somewhat not the most open-hearted, open-minded leanings towards the LGBTQ plus community. Meet someone in college their roommate and best friend they find out is gay or a lesbian or bi or pan, and suddenly there's this huge conflict. Wait a minute. This person that I really love is doing this thing that I've been told is not okay. I'm using the podcast air quotes folks, cause you know okay.
Don Mamone:It means it's a very loaded statement, but ultimately, inside that person. Now they get to decide. Am I going to be true to this foundation that was laid in inside of me before I had a voice and a choice, or am I going to go and filter it and be like, hey, okay, cool, glad you taught that to me. I certainly respect your opinion. Even now, however, I'm no longer going to, and that's a very hard thing to do. And so to your point, this perspective that we have about this is what a good X looks like. Replace that variable with whatever you want.
Don Mamone:This is what a woman looks like, this is what a man looks like, this is what professional looks like. This is what mom looks like. Suddenly, it's this wicked, awful comparison game that puts us in a place where we just we can't self-accept, we can't grow, we can't change, we can't rebel. I love the word rebel that you used, because rebel and rebel right, it's both a noun and a verb. I get to be a rebel and I get to rebel against those things that I don't align with, and the fact is it's incredibly hard work.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, it's the reward itself. I'd say like, okay, let's go to scientific. Why my hypothesis is the cost of rebelling against the binary. It's a high cost. It's going to cost you your vulnerability, your vulnerability, and you're going to have to wade through a lot of shame and stigma to get there.
Don Mamone:Yeah. So I, in my journey I gave this a term because I find that in your to your point, words build worlds, and I was trying to find a way to share with people, cognitively and verbally, what I went through so viscerally and emotionally. And that was. I stayed where I was for 45 years because I had a fear of what I called the fallout, called the fallout, the fallout, the perceived negative consequences that we believe will befall us if we choose authenticity over conformity. It's in that moment where we say, okay, well, listen, I can't withstand that. It will literally mean the destruction of everything that I hold dear. I'm just going to stay here in my fallout shelter. To continue with the metaphor Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Walter:The thing about-.
Don Mamone:And my armor that.
Jennifer Walter:I've built 100% Literally.
Don Mamone:The fallout can't get me here because I've built this shelter in which I know-.
Jennifer Walter:Radiation proof and all.
Don Mamone:Radiation proof, all the garbage, all the damage, all the people that are going to come try and take my thing from me, all the things that I'm scared of. The struggle is is you're so confined, you're so protected, you've spent so much energy building that shelter you have not even come close to a fraction of what your true potential is. Now, if that's where we exist and that's where we feel safe, that's where we get to exist and that's where we get to feel safe, until we've had enough, until there's a catalyst that comes along that changes that for us. For me, it was the birth of my daughter. I realized that this is bigger than me. I can't be this inauthentic version of myself, because I'm going to teach this to her, no matter how I try not to of myself, because I'm going to teach this to her no matter how I try not to.
Don Mamone:And so what we get to acknowledge is, outside the fallout, there's the windfall. The windfall that will come your way, the things that you will benefit from, the way in which you will reach a potential and find a freedom that you couldn't even conceive of, will outweigh the fallout. You will end up at a net positive beyond your wildest imagination. You just have to have the courage to open the door and take that step out back into the world where you say whatever befalls me, whoever comes at me, whatever the fallout might be, it's not going to matter, because on the horizon is the windfall and that's what I'm reaching, that's what I'm going for how do you open the door to probably the destruction of your shelter because at some point you will no longer need it, hopefully?
Jennifer Walter:I'd say that's an incredibly courageous thing to do and something that requires deep self-trust, especially because you have no visual or somatic knowledge of the windfall experience yeah you hope it's there, but you don't know. Like how do you hold yourself in that uncertainty? Yeah between you actually like opening the fucking door and go it's, it's so.
Don Mamone:I relied on the experiences of others, so I sought I deeply sought representation of myself. I started consuming a great deal of content about people that were gender non-conforming, beyond just someone who was a gender bending pop icon or somebody that I looked up to and was like, wow, they're unabashed, they're, they're unbelievable, authentic authenticity, like the audaciousness of it all, like I'm in, I'm in awe of it.
Don Mamone:I went deeper and looked for people that were actually sort of more I don't want to call it but yes, very much, so very much relatable and somebody that I could either confide in if they were at a level where I could reach them or you know the difference between, like sort of the cinematic movie and the docu series, right, that kind of chronicles someone's journey. So, number one, it was a leap of faith. But I also looked for myself. Now I discovered something I haven't talked about this much, so this is really great for your audience. Like as I, as I finished my book, I started to distinguish the difference between coming out and letting someone in.
Don Mamone:So when I was 41 years old, uh, my wife and I had been married for seven years. We had a nine month old baby. I describe what happened was I let her in and what that meant was I wasn't ready to come out, I couldn't even conceive of the idea of coming out. But I could no longer bear the weight and walk that lonely road alone and I knew that I needed to do something, something needed to change for my daughter. So I told her, and only her. Now that's really important because in letting her in, I felt safe with her. I felt I could trust her. I didn't know what it would mean for us as a couple us as a family, but I knew that she would not in any way strike at me, not be kind to me when I was literally-.
Jennifer Walter:The relationship you had would withstand the fallout.
Don Mamone:Well, I didn't know that, but what I knew was that she wouldn't use my vulnerability against.
Jennifer Walter:I was aware Maybe not the form of your relationship, but your connection, yes, 100%, the way I phrased.
Don Mamone:It was like I knew that she would love me, support me, be kind and compassionate to me. But she could also have said, like I knew that she would love me, support me, be kind and compassionate to me. But she could also have said like, hey, listen, I love you but I can't go on this journey with you. Like this isn't what I signed up for. She would have every right. I'm fortunate. She said you're my person and I don't care what you look like. I don't care Like. I want to know the real you.
Don Mamone:And we went a certain degree to push your chips all the way in and be all in. And at that moment you either lose it all or you don't. And the beauty in acknowledging Jennifer that I let her in was it gave me the space and the time to not be alone and still work through the process of figuring out who I was, how I wanted to show up on this world, the labels that didn't fit, the labels that did fit, and how I got to open that door eventually and walk out proudly. It's a very challenging place to be because you also accept that that person loves you enough to help carry the burden with you. They're now in this confined space with you.
Don Mamone:You've trusted them with your dirty little secret and you get there's a great keeper now yeah, and they get to help you figure out your identity, and it is the most beautiful, the most amazing gift that a person can give you, and Emily gave that to me. And so, if you're out there and you're listening to the sound of my voice, which I'm pretty sure you are I want to tell you that there is no other freedom, there is no other beauty, glorious thing in life than acknowledging who you are and working your way to acceptance. Because my I'll tell you a quick anecdote my wife wife is not. She's not the orator, she's the interjector, so I'm the one that tells the words and says the words and goes up into speeches and writes, she plays music, she does photos, she's very creative, but she doesn't talk. We were out on what you would consider to be an average ordinary date night and while we were driving into town, she looked at me and she said I have something I want to tell you. And I was like oh, into town.
Jennifer Walter:She looked at me and she said I have something I want to tell you, and I was like oh, record, scratch, needle across. Okay, all right, I'm focused.
Don Mamone:I'm 100% paying attention. And she said I just want you to know that the you that I've gotten to know, like I knew you were an amazing person. I knew two weeks in that we would be together. I love your heart, I love the person that you have always been. But since you've acknowledged and accepted who you are and as you've worked to become your most authentic self, you're a better everything. You're a better spouse, parent, sibling. Our friends have said that you're a better friend. Everything about you has gotten better since acknowledging and accepting who you are.
Don Mamone:I think that that's one of the most beautiful gifts she's given me too, because it's hard to read the label when you're inside the box is a common kind of saying when we talk about identity, and I was. It was a hard uphill climb. I was trying to figure it all out. I wasn't necessarily ready to say like, oh, I'm a better everything. So to have somebody that you love and care for tell you that it's a pretty astute observation, and I now try to hold that mirror up for others. If you decide to let someone in or to courageously come out, you, you will be the best version of yourself, one that you could probably have never imagined this is, yeah, very beautiful and I'm sure it will fall on the bright ears.
Jennifer Walter:Let's spin this further. You said, okay, we're going to see the windfall and it will be there, but I'm sure it's not all like unicorns and rainbows, like absolutely 100 not, but especially like, maybe in your case, switching from saying I'm no longer, um, like subscribing to cis normativity, I, I have my other identity box that I see myself in, I'm no longer performing as male and whenever I'm like in my life. Doesn't that, isn't that? Hasn't that resulted in some sort of loss of especially privilege, if like, do?
Don Mamone:you want to talk?
Don Mamone:about that yeah, I, I think in large part and in in very specific cases, authenticity, the price of authenticity is a loss of privilege, right, I worry about things and I think about things that I wouldn't worry about or have thought about before. They're pretty compartmentalized in my life at this point. Unless there's a concern regarding my physical safety, I don't let anyone tell me who I'm allowed to be or how I'm allowed to show up, right, authenticity means you never apologize for who you are, and it means being able to be who you are everywhere you go, no matter who you're with period, like there are no caveats or provisions or whatnot. It is so important to acknowledge that Now, acknowledging it and being ready to do it are two different things.
Don Mamone:I tell people routinely that I acknowledged my gender identity and yet was fully incapable of changing the way that I showed up in the world because I wasn't quite ready to stand and sort of feel the fire, right, of that expectation, and so it's like turning the Titanic.
Don Mamone:You know it doesn't happen overnight, right, but what I always tell people is you get to look for net positive, net progress, right. And so, again, as hard as it is, as challenging as it is, whatever losses I've suffered have been outweighed by the gains, and so I have a little thing that I want to walk the audience through because it helps manage expectations. The very first thing I did, and that I encourage you to do, is acknowledge whatever it is. It could be something really core to your identity. It could be something that is affecting your unconditional love for yourself. It can be everything from your gender identity to, maybe, how you look in a bathing suit, like it could be everything from something core to something sort of slightly more superficial. But all progress starts by telling the truth was a quote from Bill Wilson, the gentleman co-founder of AA right Alcoholics Anonymous. Like all progress starts by telling the truth. So tell yourself the truth, acknowledge it.
Jennifer Walter:The next step is to accept. Give it words. It's like give shame words.
Don Mamone:A hundred percent, just say it out loud, say it to yourself. Once you acknowledge it, you can accept it. Now, what does accept it mean? It means welcome it closer right. Because when we acknowledge it, no judgment, no shame, no blame, no guilt, no doubt, no figuring it out, it just is, it exists, acknowledge it, acceptance, bring it closer, welcome it into your life and say this is something about me, this is something I've noticed. The next is you get to embrace it. I literally mean I want you to learn how to love it. I want you to embrace it, give it a hug, Love you, right.
Don Mamone:Because we get to love ourselves unconditionally, without capacity. And the last step, which is typically the hardest step that's the step where I struggled the most. It was more of a massive leap is owning it, harnessing the power of your identity and saying boldly and confidently this is me. That was the hardest for me, but I want to tell the audience and I don't do this to sort of hurt my shoulder, patting myself on the back but, like my journey over the years meant I was the person struggling so hard with my gender identity and expression that Emily would bring home things for me to try on, and she would. She would say you know, I'd love for you to try this on. Let me know what you think.
Jennifer Walter:It's time for love, for you to try the songs. Let me know what you think. Ben, it's time for you to go to bed. It's night-night's time. Yeah, finn, please Do you want to?
Don Mamone:walk me, do you want?
Jennifer Walter:me to come out with you. Yeah, I want to come out with you. Just give me a second, I'll walk him out. It's perfectly fine. Do you want me to come out with you? Just give me a second, I'll walk him out. It's perfectly fine. I'm going to do it again. Okay, so we're gonna. I'll cut. I'll edit this out. He needed a midnight hug. I love everything.
Don Mamone:I love everything about that. I have an eight year old, and so I remember the five year old there's there's, there's, just don't get me wrong. Frankie still needs stuff.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, yeah, let's go back to the owning, the owning part. And why was that the hardest for you?
Don Mamone:Yeah, and I the part where you acknowledge, accept, embrace, taking ownership was the biggest leap for me, jennifer, because it really meant a commitment to being right. I acknowledge it in my head and in my heart and I embrace it and I was prepared to be it. But then to be it and do it was so hard. So emily would bring home clothes and as I struggled with figuring out my vibe, my style, my gender expression that is in stark contrast to the gender binary that exists in our society, I would try on the clothes and I would look in the mirror and the voices inside your head you know the ones that run- on repeat that are mean and awful and say the worst things.
Don Mamone:They would start and I would become overwhelmed by emotion and I'd be like I can't do this and I would change. And then she would lovingly say something to the effect of like oh, I'm sorry, did it not fit? Blah, blah, blah. I'm like I can't talk about it Cause I would be just so shut down. I would do it over and over and over again and I tell this story and I it's one of the few stories where I can't really conceptualize specifically what I was wearing or or what, why that day was different.
Don Mamone:But I kind of went down that process. I tried something on. I looked in the mirror, the voices started and I started to become overwhelmed, but it wasn't an overwhelm of sadness or sorrow or tears of of hurt. I was mad. I was mad and I was frustrated and I leaned into the mirror and I quite literally the voices kind of calmed, I got them to shut up and then, when they came back, the voice that was inside my head, that was actually me, instead of those gremlins, as you so lovingly referred to them All I heard was there, you are. That's the you that you get to be.
Jennifer Walter:Finally, there you are.
Don Mamone:Yeah, and, and within a very short period of time and I'm using the podcast air quotes again, everyone, because short is relative I want to say, after 45 years of denial and hiding and all the pain and the anguish, within a year or two I walked the red carpet at a VIP event in Manhattan in two inch kitten heels, an asymmetrical green gown, a chiffon skirt and makeup, and I had the whole thing and I was never more confident, never more proud, never more authentically me in that moment, with zero hesitation about what anybody thought of me. And I think that that's, that's the definition of owning it. It means fully appreciating and not just telling yourself in your head, fully appreciating and not just telling yourself in your head, fully appreciating and owning the fact that other people's opinions of you they're not in your fucking business. People can think whatever they want of me, they can call me names, they can do whatever they want. It's not going to affect who I know myself to be and how I choose to show up.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, it's not the currency that matters. Yeah, it's not the currency that matters.
Don Mamone:It's really not, and I think that when I say the freedom right in conformity, we're really choosing safety Right. And so, for me, in choosing authenticity, we're choosing freedom freedom to do what we want, to be who we are, to make the decisions that feel right to us. For me, that was the big thing. It wasn't so much what I wanted, but it was, in a sense, what it really was, though it was. I wanted what felt right, to not be wrong, to not be a secret, to not be shameful, to not be judgmental, and so I did. I found alignment.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, my truth, a hundred percent did I found alignment.
Don Mamone:Yeah, my truth, 100%. I found alignment in all those things. If it was inside of me and it felt right, then it was right then how can it be wrong?
Jennifer Walter:how can it be wrong if you know it to be true?
Don Mamone:100%.
Jennifer Walter:I think this is also the greatest parenting if anyone is also the greatest parenting, if anyone listening who is also smaller kids or little ones. I think this is the biggest thing you can do in the formative years to just help them acknowledge their truth. And it starts really small right For me. I remember every time I fell, fell down and grazed my knee as a kid like on a skateboard or whatever, like I would be like, oh, like, ah, that's just a little scratch that doesn't hurt. So it's small things like these that constantly kind of like eroded what I felt to be true about my body, and I have no stories how, like in that relation with gender or anything, but it's there's so many different ways where your truth can be like diminished over time until you're like who am I? What am I doing?
Don Mamone:I? I don't use absolutes very often, but I'm going to offer one right now. I genuinely believe that everyone on this planet, at one point or another, has felt the pressure to be something they aren't less than they are, whatever the case is, so that they're not inconvenient for someone else or make someone else feel uncomfortable, like everybody at one point in their life, right, oh, I'm a woman and I'm in this meeting and I want to say the thing that I know to be true, but I don't want people to think I'm being bitchy or hysterical or domineering, which is always the best word.
Don Mamone:Right, and I'm a man in this meeting and I'm completely overwhelmed by the level of responsibility I've just been issued and I'd like to talk about that. But I don't want anybody to think that I'm weak, so I'm going to go to the bathroom and cry in the stall alone, because I don't want people to think that I'm less than manly or unprofessional or whatever, like everybody at one point or another has said oh, I can't be inconvenient or I don't want to make this person uncomfortable. Well, I have to say it as someone who lives in the city of Dallas and the state of Texas, in the country that is the United States, and is non-binary and my expression tends to fall on the feminine side now, because I kind of locked that little lady away for so long and she's here to play and she wants to show up kind of lock that little lady away for so long and she's here to play and she wants to show up, it's the party.
Don Mamone:If I can go out in the cutest little skirt and heels you've ever seen in Texas and not care in the least if someone else is uncomfortable or inconvenienced because that's a them problem, not a me problem, then everybody listening to the sound of my voice right now can boldly and courageously say I am followed by something about their identity or something that is an affirmation that gets to be true, because they know it and believe it to be true. I am a mother, I am strong, I am courageous, I am worthy, I am enough. Whatever it is, I am strong, I am courageous, I am worthy, I am enough. Like, whatever it is, the things that I've been able to do, I'm no, I'm, I'm. I'm very special, I'm very unique, just like everyone else. But like there's, no magic.
Jennifer Walter:You're such a snowflake.
Don Mamone:Yes, I'm such a snowflake, but there is, there is nothing inside of me, no magic pill, no magic potion, no magic juju or mojo that says I can do this but you can't. I've figured it out, but you can't. Every single person and this is one of those hard realizations, jennifer is really and truly, when I break it down to that moment when you decide whether or not to throw the lever and push open the door and run out of the fallout shelter. It's a choice. It's a choice every single one of us makes as to whether or not we're going to cleave to conformity and the safety that it provides or we're going to crave authenticity and the freedom that it provides. It's a choice. It's not simple, it's not easy, it's both hard and complicated.
Jennifer Walter:We never said it was simple or easy right.
Don Mamone:It is a hard, complicated choice, but it is in fact an internal choice that you get to make, keeping in mind all the things we've talked about, that physical and emotional and psychological safety is so important. I tell people hey, sometimes you have to kick somebody out in order to come out of the of the fallout shelters, sometimes you have to literally move your physical proximity to someone to to do these, these things, but ultimately it's 100 a choice yeah, and with that I also believe, yes, fully believe, it's 100, your choice, choice, and I fully believe you have everything you need already to make that choice.
Don Mamone:Yes, it's most people that haven't found it yet haven't looked in the right place because they they're looking further away than themselves. Right For me the catalyst was my daughter, but in, in earnest, the motivation that I needed was inside of me. In earnest, the motivation that I needed was inside of me. Yeah, I needed to find the motivation.
Jennifer Walter:I needed to decide that I'm worth whatever it takes. I'm worthy of expressing my true self, of going after the things I want, whatever it is. Yep, and I'm worthy of that. And come hell or high water.
Don Mamone:Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. It really is, it's it.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, like when you're, I kind of like see myself like standing on a pier right when you, when you have like the we just have heard, which is that hurricane season, but like when you see the storm coming in and the city is rough and it's like rough and wild and but it's also beautiful. There's so much beauty also in that really hard part and when you get to acknowledge that there is also beauty in this hard part there's no point in rushing through it, because you cannot rush through it anyway.
Don Mamone:So you might as well enjoy the fucking journey yes, like, like, there is, um, there is a a fight, a battle that will be waged, but there's also times of rest, and I will say that there's. It's a circle, zigzaggy mess, like there is nothing linear about it. It is, it is, it is all over the place. But I will tell you that in every journey there tends to be times when it's harder and times when it's a little easier. And the times when it's harder is when we grow the most, and the times when it's easier, it's when we get to take a deep breath and have a sigh of relief and recharge and prepare and get ready for what's to come next.
Don Mamone:There was nothing quick or efficient or predictable about my journey. I basically just did what felt right for me. I blocked out all the noise. I focused only on the signal and what I knew to be right for me, what to feel right for me. In that sense, it is simple. I really did. I'm not overselling this. Every decision I made, every decision point, became about what feels right for me, and I wasn't always ready to make the decision. I said, okay, well, that feels right, but I'm not quite ready yet. That's okay, cause I acknowledged that it felt right and it was time to move to the next step. So you're right, there is beauty in the struggle, in the fight, and there's also a little bit of calm waters on the horizon every now and again.
Jennifer Walter:We need a breather. Yes, never doubt that we do need one.
Jennifer Walter:But before we let you off the hook, don, and everyone tuning in. There's something. I have to see how I can articulate this. When you said it beautifully, you look just for what was in front of you and you did what felt true and right to you in any given moment. When I have, when I talk to people, when I talk to my clients and friends, it feels like when you've been wearing a mask, when you've been performing for years, decades.
Jennifer Walter:It gets really hard to differentiate between is this the want, need or desire of my truest self, or is it just another layer of a mask, like? I just had a friend who was diagnosed to be on um, on the autism spectrum, mm-hmm, and it was. She is now entangling all the ways she was performing that she wasn't really. She didn't know she was even performing right, so she was like I. I did this to kind of like, get through my day to not bump into head, like bump heads with people. I didn't. It wasn't no longer a conscious decision because it has been performed Like, the show has been running for so long. Sure, like, how can we? What is your insight on figuring out if this is like the true, your truest voice, for lack of?
Jennifer Walter:a better word? I don't know.
Don Mamone:I, so I use the word deliberate practice. It's not about habit, it's about deliberate practice, right? If I did what I was in the habit of doing, I never would have strayed from what was expected of me, and I 100% validate and agree with what you've just said. When we are in the habit of doing something, when we perform by doing what we're allowed to do or what's expected of us for so long, you genuinely are working against muscle memory, and so what I tell people is deliberate practice and repetition will basically show you the way. Okay, and I have a fun little metaphor that I use what is your dominant hand, jennifer? Right or left-handed? Do you write Right, your right?
Jennifer Walter:hand Right. Yeah, I'm a righty.
Don Mamone:So I would say to you deliberate practice, as an example is brushing your teeth with your left hand I do this every other day because okay, great rewiring your brain I love that.
Don Mamone:So so you are introducing this idea of ambidextrousness, which means that you can use either hand to do routine chores. Now for for most people, and I'm sure for you, when you got started brushing your teeth with your left hand is the most I had bloody gulps. It's the most awkward, uncomfortable and it seems like the simplest and easiest thing, and here's the thing you want to give up right away. You will also intrinsically and automatically go and reach for your toothbrush with your right hand.
Jennifer Walter:Like fuck this shit, I for your toothbrush with your right hand. Like fuck this shit, I'm going to lose my right hand.
Don Mamone:Yeah, and out of just, you'll walk into the bathroom, you'll turn the light on and you'll grab your toothbrush with your right hand. You're like, oh, that's right, I promised to Don I would brush my teeth with my left hand, which seems weird, but okay, and you change hands and it's awkward, it we think it'd be so easy. What ends up happening after a while is you no longer have this automatic Habit. You start to deliberately make the choice, and I can even bring this to my life. I literally would get ready to go out of the house and I would think what do I want to wear today? Oftentimes, I fell on the side of what am I allowed or expected to wear today?
Jennifer Walter:Or what feels safe to wear.
Don Mamone:Correct Shorts, pants, a top of some sort.
Jennifer Walter:Bad t-shirt Yep, yep.
Don Mamone:Something with a funny graphic on it. Now, when I get ready to go out except for a significant concern regarding any kind of physical safety, depending on what kind of environment I would be going into I literally am like, hmm, what do I want to wear today? It feels like a skirt kind of day to day. It's really hot outside. I'm going to wear this skirt with this blouse, uh, with this hat on backwards, and I'm not going to wear makeup or earrings today, cause I don't want to be bothered and I leave the house because that's what I choose to wear versus what I'm expected to wear or allowed to wear. And so there is no magic pill unfortunately there is no like.
Don Mamone:This is the exact process, but what I can tell the audience is, if you literally make conscious choice rather than subconscious habit, and you engage in deliberate practice, it will reveal itself to you the times when you're literally just doing what's expected of you or what's allowed versus what you are actively choosing. And I will tell you right, authenticity sows the seeds of rebellion and it's an act of defiance. That is typically where you're going to find yourself. You're going to be sitting in a meeting and you're going to be thinking about something that you want to say and you'll tamper yourself for a short bit of time and then suddenly you'll be like wait a minute, wait a minute.
Don Mamone:I'm tempering myself today because I think somebody might think something and blah, blah, blah. And the next time you're like point of order, I have something to offer, and then you just say it and in that moment it's an act of defiance and you're sowing the seeds of rebellion. So authenticity oftentimes leads to being a rebel and engaging in a rebellion, and it is an unbelievably beautiful moment when you're like oh, how cool, I get to choose. That's how the ship turns, that's how the things change, that's how, suddenly, something that was ready for it, something that was inconceivable before, is not only possible but certain and it will become your new norm, right, the new standard you hold yourself to, and you're like no, just not, never.
Jennifer Walter:Like yes, you said never gonna be put back into the box, like I'm, like I'm never gonna just shut up again, I'm never gonna like lower my voice again because I have a fucking loud voice and just fucking deal with it I have.
Don Mamone:I had a realization recently, and that's that one of my fears now is not coming out, but the idea that in for any reason whatsoever and for any sort of cause that I would ever be forced back in right there would ever be a time and a place where, for any reason, I wasn't able to be my authentic self.
Don Mamone:So it literally is this feeling of a bizarro world 180 switch of like wow. For 45 years I was afraid that someone would find out my secret and I would be outed. I would be exposed and vulnerable and now I'm like gosh. I hope there's never a time or a place or a way in which I would literally psychologically, emotionally or physically be forced to not be who I am, because this is fabulous, this is wonderful, this is amazing. It I'll never, ever, like you said, nobody's ever going to be able to have me dim my light or not show up, shine bright, be loud, be clear and take up massive space. I will not take up less space to make people more comfortable or to be more convenient.
Jennifer Walter:Amen. Amen, not a church girl, but yes, amen.
Don Mamone:Yes, let's do it.
Jennifer Walter:I think there's nothing else to add, but I want to like circle back and invite anyone, like all the listeners, to. I don't know if you listen to this podcast episode in the morning or the evening, whatever. The next time you brush your teeth, use your left hand or your right hand. If your right hand is dominant, use your left and if your left is dominant hand, use your left hand or your right hand if your right hand is dominant use your left and if your left is dominant hand, use your right like let's do, let's do this, just like.
Jennifer Walter:This is your invitation to have enough pause to break a pattern yeah so don. If anyone interested in hearing more from you. Where can people find you? Where do you hang out online? Tell us.
Don Mamone:So I've made it pretty easy to find me. I'm at Don Mamone on pretty much every social media site out there. I probably spend the most time on Instagram and LinkedIn, so feel free to send me a direct message or to find me there. My website is also at Don Mamone. I'm sure that the spelling of my name will be in the show notes. I'm also very proud to say that if this episode, as I believe, is going to be in November of 2024, it will be right around that time that I will be a newly minted author, so you can take a look for my book If you liked what we've talked about today.
Don Mamone:There's a lot more where that came from, so go check out my book, and I really do want to thank you, jennifer, and for your time, for the opportunity to share this message with your audience and to hopefully inspire people to choose authenticity and abandon conformity.
Jennifer Walter:And yeah, like putting down the seats of defiance. I really love this. I feel like this needs to be a shirt yes, let's make merch yes, I got I'm. I'm actually in the process of doing scenic route merch love it and the sewing, yeah, sewing, the seats of defiance. This is, yeah, I have to play with this, um to play with this.
Jennifer Walter:So we're gonna link your book in the show notes once it comes out, great, um. So if not, then drop me an email. We're gonna link it. And I always have one last question before I let anyone off the hook. I know sure you'll, you'll have a book out, but what are you currently reading or listening to?
Don Mamone:Oh, that's really interesting. So I am what's called a wing nut. I'm very inspired by the TV show that Aaron Sorkin created in the United States in the late 90s, early 2000s, called the West Wing. It was a romantic and sort of idyllic, aspirational version of what the White House might look like and what politics might look like. So two of the people that were in that show wrote a book and it was sort of a behind the scenes of what the West Wing was and how it was created and how it was cast, and it's been very inspirational to me because I think that Aaron Sorkin is a brilliant writer. Inspirational to me because I think that Aaron Sorkin is a brilliant writer.
Don Mamone:Um, I read it as I was writing my book because I felt like when I, when I watched the show, I was like, wow, these words are so powerful in the way in which he he writes romantically and idealistically, just like I feel. So I feel like it was a bit of a. I feel like it was a bit of an encouragement from somebody who I respect and appreciate and uh, yeah, so I'm wrapping that up and, um, I listened to podcasts rather frequently. I'm a big fan of um, jenna Kutcher and the gold digger podcasts and um goal digger, if you're not familiar. It's um.
Don Mamone:it's about setting goals and um, yeah, it's a very nice wordplay and, uh, I'll be candid, though other than that, uh, a couple of common podcasts that I listen to. I have literally been writing every moment of every day for the last like three months. So, um, there you have it.
Jennifer Walter:That's what I've been doing yay, so we're gonna link the book and the city grand book club. That's a page. If you're not knowing what to read next, go have a look there. All my fabulous guests have their books up there, so you'll find something for sure. I'm currently still busy with reading, but I'll head there next too. So, don, thank you so much for being on the Cinegraph with me. It was a pleasure to have you.
Don Mamone:Thank you, jennifer, I enjoyed the ride.
Jennifer Walter:And just like that, we've reached the end of another journey together on the Scenic Route Podcast. Thank you for spending time with us. Curious for more stories or in search of the resources mentioned in today's episode, visit us at scenicroutepodcastcom for everything you need and if you're ready to embrace your scenic route, I've got something special for you. Step off the beaten path with my scenic route affirmation card deck. It's crafted for those moments when you're seeking courage, yearning to trust your inner voice and eager to carve out a path authentically, unmistakably yours. Pick your scenic route affirmation today and let it support you. Excited about where your journey might lead? I certainly am. Remember, the scenic route is not just about the destination, but the experiences, learnings and joy we discover along the way. Thank you for being here and I look forward to seeing you on the scenic route again.
