Scenic Route, Social Change and Mental Health Conversations for Perfectionists
Forget the fast lane! The Scenic Route is where perfectionists slow down, get better, and create real change.
We explore:
- Mental health wisdom (minus toxic positivity)
- Social change (that starts from within)
- System critiques (with actionable solutions)
- Inner wisdom (over external validation)
- Mindfulness for minimalists (no crystals required)
Join Jennifer Walter, sociologist (MASoc UCC) and recovering perfectionist, for weekly conversations that blend critical thinking with oh-so-much compassion.
Whether you're questioning everything or trying to find peace amongst the chaos, you'll find space here for your inner voice, mindset, mental health, and collective change — you're in the right place. We make space for both personal healing and collective change — with a side of potty humour.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
The longest way round is the shortest way home – and that's exactly why we're taking the Scenic Route.
Ready to walk the scenic route?
The view here is *chef's kiss.*
Scenic Route, Social Change and Mental Health Conversations for Perfectionists
Your Brain’s Blind Spots: How to Think Critically in the Disinformation Age with Dr. Brie Kara
We are living in the Disinformation Age — a time unlike any other in history. Never before have we been bombarded with so much information, yet so little clarity. Our feeds are flooded with misleading headlines, personal opinions disguised as facts, and viral narratives designed to manipulate us. Even the sharpest minds can fall for misinformation—so how do we learn to see through the noise?
In this episode of The Scenic Route, I sit down with Dr. Brie Kara, a psychologist specializing in disinformation and media literacy, to break down:
- The real difference between misinformation and disinformation (and why it matters)
- Why our brains are wired to fall for cognitive biases and mental shortcuts
- How disinformation campaigns hijack our instincts—and how to fight back
- Practical strategies to sharpen critical thinking and media literacy skills
- Why fact-checking isn’t enough—and what to do instead
We’re constantly being pulled in different directions by algorithms, outrage-driven media, and our own subconscious biases. This episode will give you the tools to think more clearly, question more effectively, and reclaim your mental autonomy.
Listen now and upgrade your brain’s operating system!
Mentioned in this episode
Brie Kara's website
On Instagram
On Threads
Thinking Fast & Slow by Daniel Kahneman
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
See you on the Scenic Route.
_____________________________________________________________________
Visit jenniferwalter.me – your cosy corner where recovering perfectionists, misfits, and those done pretending to be fine find space to breathe, dream, and create real change."
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Hey, beautiful humans, welcome back to the Scenic Route. I'm Jen, your Swiss sociologist, mental health advocate and host, and today I got a really juicy conversation for you that's going to change the way you scroll, think and share. I'm sitting down with Dr Brie Cara, a psychologist, who's about to take us on a fascinating journey through the world of misinformation and disinformation. Our phones currently ping with breaking news every five minutes and all our social feeds are like a tsunami of opinions thinly disguised as facts. So how do we know what's real anymore, what is true, and why does our brain sometimes fall for things that aren't true, even when we consider ourselves to be pretty smart cookies? Dr Bree is going to help us understand the psychological magic tricks happening in our minds, breaking down those mental shortcuts we all use, and give us some practical tools to navigate this never-seen-before information landscape without losing our sanity. We'll be relearning how to think critically in a world designed to bypass our irrational thought. Essential skills we all need, and we all should refresh for sure. So grab your beverage of choice, find a comfy spot and let's get ready to upgrade our brain's operating system together. This is one conversation you don't want to miss. This is the scenic route. The journey to truth might have some detours, but the view is always worth it, so let's go. There's a different way to think about mental health, and it starts with slowing down. Sometimes, the longest way around is the shortest way home, and that's exactly why we're taking the scenic route.
Jennifer Walter:Hi, I'm Jennifer Walter, host of the Scenic Route podcast. Think of me as your sociologist, sister in arms and rebel with many causes Together. We're blending critical thinking with compassion, mental health with a dash of rebellion, and personal healing with collective change. We're trading perfectionism for possibility and toxic positivity for messy growth. Each week, we're exploring the path to better mental health and social transformation. And yes, by the way, pretty crystals are totally optional. You ready to take the scenic route? Let's walk this path together. Dr Brie Cara is a doctor of psychology and an expert on the psychology of disinformation and deep fakes. Dr Brie worked in government service for over 20 years and served as a professor at the National Intelligence University, teaching national intelligence strategy. Dr Brie moved to Germany in 2017 and transitioned to running her own business called Forecasting for Success, where she teaches others financial literacy and how to achieve financial independence, along with exploring how or why someone might be stuck financially based on their money habits through the lens of astrology Brie, welcome to the Cineground podcast.
Brie Kara:Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.
Jennifer Walter:Oh, I'm so excited. I'm really glad that you're kind of like my GPS for navigating, like this current really foggy times of fake news, wild claims and personal experience masquerading as like facts and science and like we need to talk about this. Absolutely Glad that I have you as a research psychologist to yeah, to guide me through this.
Brie Kara:It is a messy, messy time. F fog is definitely the right word for it yeah, right, it's, it is.
Jennifer Walter:So, um, I feel, before we like kind of go into why our brains, like how they work, that we end up believing others bullshit and often also our own bullshit need to kind of, like this, make a distinction or look at what is information, what our like, what our brain understands as information and how we like also can work with that in terms of what is disinformation and misinformation yeah, that'd be a perfect place to start.
Brie Kara:We can go over the differences between the two first and before we get into the mental gymnastics.
Jennifer Walter:Perfect. Hey, take us away. What do we need to know before we go into, like looking at why do we believe certain?
Brie Kara:things to be true, absolutely. So a lot of people will believe or misunderstand that misinformation and disinformation are interchangeable, that these are words that mean the same thing, but they're actually two very distinct and different things. So misinformation refers to inaccurate information that's shared with others just due to a mistake or negligence. But once you make the person aware of their bias or aware of factual information to make a correction, then the corrections are made and the announcement will be made and update will be made, just saying, hey, there was some misinformation, here's the, here's the correct factual statistics or data refers to false information that is purposely and covertly spread with the specific intent of misleading or deceiving people in order to influence public opinion or obscure a truth because harm is meant to be caused.
Brie Kara:There's something very specific and purposeful that the person that has created the disinformation wants to happen, and the reason why it's disinformation is because it's not good. If it was good, if they had positive intent, then they would tell you what the positive intent is. There would be no need to use deceit or to hide this. So this is why people who have the resources to launch and sustain a disinformation campaign are so dangerous is because there's a big difference between just a person shouting lies and nonsense just into the wind versus having teams of bad actors who can lead a populace down a path to their own detriment, without that group of people even being aware of what is happening to them, or at least not having enough resources or enough of them in order to stop it yeah, and when we see so much concentrated wealth right now, it's never before, which is kind of like the perfect breeding ground for just pushing your own narrative as disinformation absolutely.
Jennifer Walter:it's very frustrating that the resources that we have available in modern day, like the Internet and social media, it's really not being used on a macro scale in order to genuinely provide assistance and help to populations like for for our daily lives, this, this, this difference really matters, like just to kind of like see there is a malicious intent with this information and you not remembering something correctly is not like disinforming the public, like there is really like something else, like there's something entirely else going on, and like, if we're now I mean you mentioned the web and social media right like what are subtle or less subtle red flags that might signal we're looking at disinformation versus I don't know, just a very passionate person sharing how they see the world absolutely so.
Brie Kara:One of the red flags that you can look for is someone with the resources in Just a very passionate person sharing how they see the world Absolutely so. One of the red flags that you can look for is someone with the resources in order to sustain the lie. So if a person would have the influence, the reach over a very large population money, things of this nature it would be important to pay more attention to what they're saying, because very often it starts with a threat of truth and that's what makes it so challenging to confront it and we'll get into this in a moment because, mentally, whatever you hear first is what you believe. That's your foundation. So if someone's able to get to you first and begin with the threat of truth but then lead you down a very specific path, a path of disinformation, if you will, this is the very, very tricky part yeah, I think that's that's a really crucial point.
Jennifer Walter:If, if there would be no shred of truth whatsoever, I think more people would spot, would spot it as bullshit or conspiracy or whatever. But it's kind of like no, no fire without smoke, or like there's always like this nugget that is true or rings true, where you're like getting hooked and then be like, oh okay, yeah, if that, okay, but you're not seeing that the rest is like on, purposely deceitful exactly yes, because it takes too much energy in order for us to strongly pay attention.
Brie Kara:100 for the whole thing that a person is trying to relay.
Jennifer Walter:I'm just like fucked anyway, because of social media and general like mental load and what's going on, it's, it's just right. Capacity to engage with information is scarce 100%.
Brie Kara:So if everything in the beginning sounds good enough mentally, we do check out, because that's the way our brains are meant to function, because if you were 100% paying attention all the time, we would get exhausted way too quickly. We would not be able to function optimally that way. And so as long as things sound good in the beginning, people kind of tune the rest out. And then when someone else comes along and they're like oh, my goodness, you know, I have had the time and energy to pay attention. This doesn't sound right to me. Unfortunately, usually we get defensive, we as humans, we get defensive and we're like well, it sounded good to me, but you only heard the very, very beginning.
Jennifer Walter:You may not have as much information as the other person, and this is where all the debates and the criticality comes in you kind of brushed on and then important thing right on how we like we just kind of like how our brain process the information, like we're checking out and then just like browsing through it, like it feels like this might be a good moment to hook into um conman's concept of the two systems of thinking and how we process, how our brain process information. Right, because they are very distinctive and, um, yeah, just very distinctive, and both they're not like better or worse, like they're not meant to be judged against each other. Right, both are useful. But we're kind of like we have some difficulties with each one of those one system, one and two. Like how, yeah, how does? How do we, if we're like we already said, okay, if something is sounds good at the beginning, we're kind of like start processing it right away. So, but how do we process? Like, how do we think? How does our brain handle that?
Brie Kara:Yeah, a hundred percent, and I agree with you when it comes to heuristics and mental processes, they're not bad. They're actually neutral. And that is a misunderstanding sometimes when people like myself are discussing misinformation and disinformation and how our brain processes. That it's not a critique of the heuristics, it's just we have to pay special attention when it's time when we should remind ourselves hey, I need to engage in critical thinking. So let me back up, like you said, and just lay this all out in plain language. So, when it comes to heuristics, these are mental shortcuts. That's all that that fancy word refers to.
Jennifer Walter:So what this-?
Brie Kara:Heuristic shortcut, we go okay, good, exactly, it's just a fancy word. When it comes to the mental shortcuts, what happens is our minds will blend our own personal experiences with other historical information that we have available to us, and this is where our minds blend all this experience together in order to create problem-solving techniques that we believe we can apply to our everyday lives. So these are really quick, very um quick engagement answers and resources that we have mentally available for us.
Jennifer Walter:So every one of us has kind of like our, their own, kind of like brains version of life hacks.
Brie Kara:Exactly. Yeah, that's perfect. It's meant to be real quick, real easy to access and not a lot of mental energy or effort has to be put into this. And that really quick, automated. And that really quick, automated, unconscious, if you will effort is referred to as type one or system one. It's the really quick, easy button and our brains love that, because research shows us that our brains will actively avoid resource demanding cognitive processes. So unless we practice and keep up to date our critical thinking skills, we default a little too often to the easy button, and this is where we it can get tricky with believing the disinformation if we're not practicing our media literacy and our critical thinking skills yeah, yeah um.
Brie Kara:So whenever we get into system two or type two, this is what the media literacy skills and the critical thinking skills are. It means that we're actively engaging in, as Kindman puts it, as you said, thinking about thinking. You're actively aware that you need to process the data and really break it down a hundred percent, and that's, that's type two. So that's what we want to remember to use whenever we believe that someone might be trying to pull the wool over our eyes it's already sounds exhausting, right like it.
Jennifer Walter:You know it might make sense that this is not. I mean that like our default might not be accessing system. Two, because it sounds like it requires much more energy from our bodies, and our bodies are kind of like to, more designed to maintain energy in general and not like spending it excessively.
Brie Kara:So this makes sense. Yes, 100 it's. It's surprising how much mental effort and focus it takes in order to make very deliberate and slow decisions, to go slow and meticulous and methodical with our thinking. It actually takes a lot more effort and energy, yeah, than what someone might originally estimate oh okay, we're going to go into that for sure, because later because I think you want to first look into system one and over.
Jennifer Walter:You kind of like had it mentioned a bit about these, like the fancy word is heuristics and the the rule of thumb or kind of like what we have and I think it's important to kind of like go over maybe the four or five like most important ones, so that we kind of like know what we're doing and why we're doing it.
Brie Kara:Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, I think. Um, before we jump to the critical thinking techniques, I think what's really interesting about type one is that it has the capacity to force the answer in some situations. So when you're yeah, so when your brain is actually unsure of an accurate answer, especially when the information is inconsistent with the person's worldview, which, again, when I say worldview, this refers to the mental foundations of who we are and how we believe the world works.
Brie Kara:So when someone encounters something that goes against how they believe the world works or who they are, this is when bias kicks in.
Brie Kara:And this is what makes us susceptible to the disinformation, because now the logic or the conclusion that could be used, it's not quite right. So the person being able to recognize or talk about their bias, it does depend on how big the gap is between objective reality and the person's bias or belief. So the bigger the gap between those two things, then the stronger the person is likely to cling to their belief, no matter what evidence you have to provide to them. And this is when people double down on their belief in disinformation is because the campaign started with a thread of truth that matched their worldview, and so they continue down that path of disinformation. So when someone else comes along later and tries to stop them and say, hey, this isn't right, we shouldn't do this, etc. That's when they defend the disinformation and protect it, rather than being willing to admit their lack of knowledge or that their bias has kicked in and say, okay, I agree okay.
Jennifer Walter:So to avert a loss of face, potentially, and admitting I was wrong, which no one likes to do, I guess they rather become an agent of the disinformation itself, exactly okay, got it exactly, and you'll see this more and more, as talking about disinformation is more in the public realm, it's more of common language and common knowledge.
Brie Kara:To admit, hey, I think that this is happening. People get very frustrated and a little sad, to be honest with you, that they're trying to help others and say, look, here's some facts, here's some truth. This is how a different choice would help you more, and it doesn't matter how much evidence, how much truthful information they can get that person to access. They still won't want to cling to the disinformation and it's due to support them seeing the world in a different way which we actually need.
Jennifer Walter:You would need, to like, reverse, years and years and years of conditioning yes, exactly it's.
Brie Kara:It's very complicated. Which is why I'm so passionate about this area of research is that at the moment, we lack efficacious macro countering techniques. It's there's not a box of resources, if you will, that we can very quickly grab to try to stop the disinformation. One of the only things that we have is something called the inoculation theory, and it's actually very rare to be able to use it. What it means is you have some type of warning, to know that disinformation is coming. You know that a campaign is about to start and you're able to warn the people, warn the populace, beforehand.
Jennifer Walter:Kind of like an ad disclaimer, like this post is sponsored or something. Exactly Okay, gotcha, and it's so rare more simple language.
Brie Kara:Exactly okay.
Jennifer Walter:Unfortunately, it's just so rare to be able to do that well you would need to know exactly person x is planning to do to launch a disinformation campaign like T minus three days on this platform, which Exactly yeah, no, yeah.
Brie Kara:Not really possible.
Brie Kara:No, it's a nice period paper but it probably proves very hard to yeah To actually like do One of the only examples that we have is when the US intelligence community was able to warn of the impending Russian invasion of Ukraine. That's honestly, one of the only examples that we have Because, like what you were saying, anything else is just too unlikely. It's too unrealistic to warn people beforehand. A distant second technique is using humor, so you are able to make fun of the disinformation and just be like this is ridiculous. I can't believe this guy and draw attention to why it's so ridiculous. And using humor is shown to have an effect. It is shown to lessen the strength of the disinformation yeah, I feel this.
Jennifer Walter:I mean, yeah, I agree, humor seems to be like a really great way of doing that, but Again, like it probably would only be effective if your platform is as big or bigger as your opponents, right, I mean, if I don't know, the President of the United States, not me, I'm not going to say his name.
Brie Kara:We can mention past ones. Yeah, we can mention past ones. Yeah, we can mention that.
Jennifer Walter:That's more relevant right, but, like I mean any president, it doesn't matter, right? And I when my teeny, teeny, tiny, weeny tiny platform would be like ha ha ha, using humor. Right, like it, the the the proportions are are completely out of control, right? I think humor could only work among like more or less equals 100%.
Brie Kara:Yes, exactly okay, and so we're back to square one.
Jennifer Walter:We we don't like from a scientific perspective, from a scientific community, we currently have a really hard time going at disinformation on a macro level.
Brie Kara:Exactly, and so that's why informing people how critical it is that they remain engaged with media literacy and their own personal critical thinking techniques is all we have, and it's so important for people to keep those skills up to date, to keep those beefed up in order to prevent these campaigns from reaching in and clutching onto a populace.
Jennifer Walter:Up to date, to keep those beefed up in order to prevent these campaigns from uh, you know reaching in and clutching onto a populace and negatively affecting them yeah, because, as you've said, once they kind of like get a little hook hook inside you, it's almost kind of like too late, because it will require even more like mental strength to kind of like on claw and get back out again, right?
Jennifer Walter:absolutely yeah oh, okay, so okay then how, with this flood of information and this fog of disinformation, how can we, maybe? What does it make sense to first talk about? How, like, how can we train media literacy, like you said, or do we? Are you like now, jen? We actually need to talk first about critical thinking oh no, it's perfect.
Brie Kara:I think it's also a great idea to start with the media literacy.
Jennifer Walter:Okay, and Bree, what the fuck? What can we do?
Brie Kara:I've, I got you, let's. Let's get right into it. So, media literacy, this is the process of enhancing your critical thinking skills via learning how to more thoroughly analyze, evaluate and communicate message information. So what this is referring to are educational programs that are designed to reduce the harmful effects, the media effects, and prevent risky behaviors in a populace. So, technically, media literacy is a type of critical thinking, but it does deserve its own highlight, just due to the topic.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, makes sense.
Brie Kara:Yeah. So one example of media literacy is being aware of your own personal biases, because we do have them. That's just what a part of what makes us human. None of us get to go through life without having bias, and so it's just really important to say, hey, I'm human, I have bias, this is what I think my biases are. That way, in case you come across something that triggers one of those biases when you are reading literature online or watching videos online, that at least it's a mental reminder to where it is a useful and helpful mental trigger, if you will, to your brain realizes oh, wait, a second. I recognize that I need to switch into type two or system two, thinking okay, well, but how?
Jennifer Walter:I can already like hear listeners at this point, but brie how can I? How can I know my own bias right, because this is now also where blind spot theory comes in. How do I know what I don't know?
Brie Kara:yes, yes, that's a. That's a very good point. So what we can do is just go with an easy example. So for, for instance, if you believe that you're personally really far to the left politically or really far to the right politically, that would be an example of a bias. So just recognizing that that's one of your biases and that's the type of information that you go for yeah, for me.
Jennifer Walter:I know this bias. I'm proud of it. It's okay, I'm a left snowflake. I can live with it. It's okay, I'm a left snowflake I can live with it.
Brie Kara:It's okay, come at me, yeah, same, I'm right there with you. So one of the things that we can do in order to mitigate this bias is to say, okay, if I typically access news and read news, that's really far left, for instance. What you can try to do is engage with very reliable and centrist sources and compare it to what you usually read. So this can help you explore not only your own biases, but also the biases of your typical news source or information source, and whether or why you've been missing some key data points that can help you make more informed choices.
Jennifer Walter:Okay, and in all of this, I'm just wondering, like, how do other mental models, like cognitive dissonance or self-fulfilling prophecy, play into this? Right, If I well I mean, mean, I know when I'm looking, when I my, when my personal worldview is um conservative, let's go with that I might look more for, look for more information that kind of like confirm my conservative worldview, that kind of like reinforce me in my belief that conservatism is what I want for life. Yeah, like, do they play? Like? Do cognitive dissonance or self-improvement do they play into that, or is it like not something that kind of like fits into, uh, what we're currently talking about with information oh you, you're totally right.
Brie Kara:It 100% is part of this puzzle and it definitely plays into it.
Brie Kara:Yes, yeah, so, for example, with cognitive dissonance. That is part of that worldview that I was talking about. And your brain really does perceive it as a threat, a true threat to cause you harm. And that plays into the mental model of why people are so resistant to factual information. Because if the brain perceives its foundational information foundational being like who you are as a being as being threatened by this other data, it's perceived as a real threat to your personhood, who you are, and it will actively resist any other data that does not maintain that foundation. And this is why you can't just sit down one time with a person and prevent, present to them useful and helpful information and say, hey, I'm helping you out, here you go, and someone easily, yeah and someone being like.
Brie Kara:Oh, not a problem. That may completely realign my worldview and build a whole new mental foundation, and it's okay.
Jennifer Walter:So it goes then more into like cognitive behavioral therapy, or really like you need to actively yes, change over and over and again, okay yes, and that's part of the frustration for researchers is that there's no macro way to do that quickly and successfully.
Brie Kara:You can do it one-on-one. To do anything quickly and successfully, you can do it one-on-one.
Jennifer Walter:I still might not be able to do anything quickly and successfully.
Brie Kara:I mean as a psychologist.
Jennifer Walter:Let me tell you this Touche Because your psychology is wishful thinking.
Brie Kara:I think it's just frustrating because disinformation is such an easy button Like how come it works, the bad way.
Jennifer Walter:You know, my five-year-old studies were nothing but frustrating.
Brie Kara:Oh goodness, no know you're yeah, you're totally, you're totally right yeah, but so, like you're saying, you can sit down one-on-one with someone and eventually, over time, help them out, but it would take so much time and effort yeah, and if they want to be helped or if they like, yes, if they are open enough to be like hey, I'm open to having a discourse.
Jennifer Walter:Yes, and I feel this is currently very much not the case anymore. It goes for both sides right. How? Why should I want a discourse with people who want to like we're actively endangering the lives of people I love, but it's really hard to kind of like soften this up and be like no, well, we actually need a discourse yeah, yeah, absolutely it's.
Brie Kara:it's why having strategists people who are genuinely trained on strategic communication are so important, because the more consistent you are about your own messaging of okay, this is what's really happening, or this is how we're trying to help you as a populace that's why that's so important is to repeat that over and over and over again, because the better we can be at strategic communication, the less effective disinformation campaigns are.
Jennifer Walter:yeah, makes sense um, I want to go back to media literacy. Like on how to improve one's oneself's media literacy. We said, okay, you need to like be aware of your own biases, and that, my friends, requires you have to know yourself. You have to like look at all your shit and be like, hey, maybe I think this because of um. Is there other like other steps we can take to improve our media literacy?
Brie Kara:Yeah, sure thing. Another really helpful media literacy technique is to understand the difference between news and entertainment. So being very cognizant and aware of what those two distinct types of data are is really important. It's important from a mental baseline perspective and also decisions that are relevant and necessary to come from factual information and not entertainment. So it is really important in these moments to seek out data from news sources, for example.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, news sources.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, yeah, and not be forming any foundational beliefs or decisions from pure entertainment but I mean here I already hear like all the market, all the marketing people and the audience. You know there are a few, but what about? Like? I mean, we know this and we already had, we already have like hybrid, hybrids of like infotainment. To me people listen to news more if it sounds fun, like I don't know, we create, we also created part loads of this mess. Like how, how do we get out of that? Right, because so many people tune if they hear this is the eight o'clock news, like they were already like tapped out, oh, sure, absolutely yeah, 100.
Brie Kara:That's a really good point and also a really good question. So whenever people do have the mental energy and capacity, what they need to do is take a moment and just say, okay, have I gone to the actual source of the information or have I just heard it second and third hand from other people, like you're saying, these infotainers? So if we have a true decision to make that affects us on a political level when it comes to who who our government representatives are, healthcare choices, things that the politicians are are are voting on and acting on, have we truly gone to those sources? Have we gone to government sources to see what our governments are saying, what the politicians are saying, et cetera? Whoever the decision maker is, have we compared the original data from the decision makers or are we just repeating what we've heard through our local news, through these infotainers, et cetera?
Jennifer Walter:And so it's that distinction that's really important, okay can we also I mean, this is a lot of work, right? Can we also kind of that?
Brie Kara:we know we, we trust their body of work, or can we crowdsource this and I don't know in our community, because we cannot keep up with everything and like source check with everything, like I feel this is already giving me a headache absolutely, I totally agree with you and I love that you actually brought that up, because establishing trusted community members is one of the best things that you can do in order to just benefit from a local perspective and as a person, and so I can share a resource with you to where people can go to make sure that they're receiving more factual news sources and information, if that's, if that's useful for listeners, and 100 percent agree to look into local resources to see if there are people who are already doing this to the benefit of the local community. Hmm, ok.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, or surely, or usually, a good, a good green flag is their, their NPO's, yes, okay, are there other ways how we can improve our media literacy?
Brie Kara:Yeah, there are other ways that we can do that, and that it's that's a perfect bridge because it ties into our other critical thinking skills that play into our media literacy, exactly. So another example that we have of using critical thinking as an to exercise it, if you will, and this is to identify our personal strengths and weaknesses so you can apply this to yourself or you can apply it to a situation, et cetera. And so what you do in comparing the strengths and weaknesses of either yourself or a situation, it's meant to be an active mental thinking process intended to help you identify again biases that you may have that are skewing your answer into a less helpful area. It's meant to help you be more objective in your assessments and reach a more helpful conclusion over a decision that you have to make. So that plays into the first example that we talked about about biases. If someone's having trouble, if they're not quite sure how to pinpoint biases, making a little list of strengths and weaknesses of yourself or a situation, this can help highlight that for them.
Jennifer Walter:I love that. Yeah, that's, that's something really actionable that everyone can do in a couple of minutes and just be like, hey, oh, okay, good reminder, even. And yeah, and you're like oh, I've already done this, jen, do it again. You grow and evolve, bitch, do it again, okay. So you've already said media literacy is a part of critical thinking. Um, and I know, uh, I'm kind of like it's serious. This is uh. Now let's talk about critical thinking and this is kind of like oh, this is triggering me, because that was one awful class I had with uh that we like like the School of Sociology had with the School of Philosophy together. And boy, do not want to be in a class full of philosophers. It's a nightmare. That's probably what psychologists say about sociologists, but hey, it's fascinating. But I'm like I was like okay, I okay, no, like, give me, give me a fucking break.
Brie Kara:We all got our comfortable groups.
Jennifer Walter:So critical thinking how how do we even start untangling it so that we can so it, we can make a space for it, so we can cultivate it again?
Brie Kara:Absolutely. I love that question. That's a great question. I'm actually going to share my favorite example that I really encourage people to engage with whenever it comes to beefing up and improving their critical thinking skills, and it's called judging and adjudicating, and what this means is to write a list of pros and cons for both sides of an argument, and what this exercise does is it's meant to help you see things from a new perspective and open up new opportunities or new decisions that you may not have reached otherwise on your own.
Jennifer Walter:Okay, yeah, so it's really okay. Yeah, makes sense. So you're, you're getting to see the difference between I'm judging and I'm thinking critically, right?
Brie Kara:100% yes okay yes, so the judging side typically tends to have more biases, more unconscious thoughts, old beliefs that we have. That's typically what comes up in the judging column for people, especially if they're lacking true depth of knowledge on whatever the topic is, whatever the argument is. And it's meant to highlight this because normally that list would tend to be pretty short and that would highlight to you okay, maybe I don't naturally have true, like deep, in-depth knowledge of whatever this topic is, because the adjudicating side is meant to be more objective, it's meant to be more fact-based, that type of thinking, rational, yes, 100, exactly. And so if the list is short, just you know, for the sake of argument, that's to highlight to you I need to go get more resources, I need to get more data points and can form more of a more rational, thoughtful, logical, open-minded yes, a more holistic picture of true pros and cons, with more factual information and hopefully, again, this is when we add another layer of media literacy.
Brie Kara:It would also encourage you to go to multiple sources, trusted sources, not just you know, far right or far left, for example. You would try to go to those more centralist, trusted data sources.
Jennifer Walter:I always for me. I don't know if that's scientifically correct, so feel free to be like nah, jan, I always feel judging versus critical thinking what a telltale sign for me is. I feel judging is very ego-driven. Oh yeah, thinking is more mission oriented. Right, it's not about yes having like wanting to be right or wrong, but like kind of like what's best for?
Brie Kara:the cause. Absolutely, you're 100 right. Yes, and there's. It's important to understand a time and a place. You know there's a time and a place where it's okay. We're making a personal ego driven choice just for us, in our personal situation. If you're not harmed, others aren't harmed, you know, go for it go for the bed and cherries absolutely it's just not appropriate to use that type of thinking for all situations, especially when it affects others yeah, and that's sometimes here we're like, but often can we?
Jennifer Walter:I mean, with some decisions, right, it's pretty clear, okay, this will affect others, but often it's not in the mid in the rush of things is it always very obvious that this will affect others no, because that requires the type two thinking, and for all of us, myself included, like said, none of us are exempt from this.
Brie Kara:Our minds default to the type one, and so sometimes we just have to make a real quick decision right in the moment, and then it's only later on to where we have the time and the space to engage in that type two, and that's when we realize, oh, realize, oh, you know, I could have made a better choice, so I again that's like a huge problem like I do also like coach, coaching and that's a big problem for especially smart people who are like oh, I should have known better.
Jennifer Walter:And I mean, yeah, looking back, yes, right, but in the moment when you don't have the past data points to refer to Right you don't know.
Brie Kara:Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. We're all just doing the best that we can in the moment. Yeah, and that's how we learn and evolve over time is being able to look back and reflect and think okay, I could have done better. Next time I will do better. So I always try to highlight to people whenever we speak of heuristics and these processes, it's truly not a judgment, because this is just day-to-day life. It's only highlighting when it comes to disinformation. In this instance, it would be better for all of us if we do try to just take a breath and think more critically when it comes to this area of our lives, since we are being all affected on a more day-to-day basis and that's the unfortunate part. It's this exposure to the disinformation so consistently and routinely almost day-to-day, to the disinformation so consistently and routinely almost day to day. That's what's negative. It's not so much our type of thinking or our decision making processes yeah, yeah, 100.
Jennifer Walter:You've shared one model on how you would like to train critical thinking. Is there another way or another kind of like nugget of wisdom you would like to share when it comes to really make it easier on yourself to put on your critical thinking cap?
Brie Kara:Yeah, absolutely using your sources, your media sources, information sources. When people have the time, I also encourage them to pay attention to who the authors are. Are you seeing the same author over and over and over again, or are you being exposed to a variety of authors across different types of information spectrums? So, when people do have the capacity to go deeper into their research of their information sources, it's important to make sure that whoever's authoring the information that you're ingesting and making a part of your worldview, that these are respected and credentialed experts or authors, whatever is you know, respective to their appropriate field, because this can also help highlight any potential biases or people who are being less than truthful in their writings.
Jennifer Walter:But this is already like a huge thing where, like, social media, algorithms really work against us right, like when we I don't know influencers we see them a lot, then we're quick. We see them a lot, then we're quick. One of those heuristics that is to okay, we see them more, so we, we believe that this is legit. If we see something is shared by many people, like opposed by someone, we might assume it's true because we see it so much.
Brie Kara:There's, like this availability yes, yeah, that's when the availability heuristic kicks in. Okay, 100, and so whatever you're most often exposed to or have access to by default, that becomes what you believe. Yeah, and so another thing that kicks in is this concept of othering. People don't want to be the other, they want to be a member of the end group, and so if the content that they're consuming and being exposed to most most often is in one group, by default, over time you want to be part of that group, even if you might not 100 technically agree with everything, or you might have made different choices or you might have reached a different conclusion Like your community, wiring is just too strong to override.
Brie Kara:Yes, exactly, and so it's really important to try to be aware of what you're consuming, especially over time, to not, by default, end up in this group that is more difficult for you to disconnect from yeah, this is. It feels like we're describing a cult for some people in this realm it can go down that path, unfortunately. So we just want to.
Jennifer Walter:We want to prevent that, yeah ideally if we can, but yeah it's it really is the just kind of like the the day, the consistent day-to-day exposure. That's kind of like, yeah, hooking you in unconsciously and giving you also all other sorts of things, and we usually only talk about like the like, the comparison of like that. If we watch social media influencers, for example, what all their consumerists bullshit, a lot of us tend to like, feel envy and like, oh, I want this too. So this is, I feel, more of a side we talk about, and what you said is something we're talking less about, which is even more critical to like the broader scheme of things.
Brie Kara:So thank you so much for for sharing that yeah, I I really appreciate you having me here so I can talk about this, since I am so passionate about it and and hopefully it helps some listeners out. So thank you what is?
Jennifer Walter:I think I want to talk quickly before we end. Talk more about the different heuristics. Right like there's something I often fall into myself if something looks legit, it must be legit. Right like, if I don't know a website looks really well made, or if I don't know if the dude is wearing a really fancy suit, I'm like he must know what he's talking about. Right like, I don't know, is that? Is that like one of those heuristics as well?
Brie Kara:Yeah, absolutely, it's. Um, it definitely plays into the fact that people let's see, how can I explain this? It's, it's just easy. It's easy to make those real quick, rapid decisions and choices in the very beginning.
Brie Kara:We're so visual and so when you first look at someone and they have it all together and they appear very confident and very sure of themselves and what they're presenting not only how they look but the information that they're saying there's no gray area. There's no reason, on that very quick first glance, to second guess or immediately default to oh, they're up to something or there's something nefarious going on here. If at very first glance it looks good and it sounds good, then it's easy for our minds to just say, okay, I agree, everything's good on this side too, and so it's not about living suspiciously or anxiously about everyone and their intentions suspiciously or anxiously about everyone and their intentions. It's just reminding yourself to be open to. I might have to make a different choice as new information comes in. Yeah, so if someone looks good and they sound good, it's okay to remain neutral. Maybe don't immediately, on first interaction with this person, put them into a good bucket. Maybe they can just remain neutral for a little bit.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, and as you gain good point, right we have a bucket too.
Brie Kara:We don't have just a good or a bad bucket, we also have just like a neutral bucket yeah, absolutely exactly, and so it's just reminding yourself to be open-minded, that it's okay to make different choices as more information comes in over time. It doesn't mean you were wrong.
Jennifer Walter:We're all acting on the best that we have at that time yeah, right, it's, it requires, but it requires like a certain humbleness to be like yeah, that was wrong, that's okay, like right right right and it's okay to blame them.
Brie Kara:Like if someone truly is coming at you with disinformation, that's on them. Yeah, like you should be proud of saying hey, I'm recognizing disinformation.
Jennifer Walter:I'm gonna make a different choice now yeah, I got tricked, that's okay and kind of like that's what we talked about before. Right, like in hindsight, yeah, we know now we were tricked, but it wasn't, maybe wasn't obvious that time exactly. And we always have this belief, this bias, that past events were predictable, in fact, which is like, yeah, okay, sure, sure we do. And this is hard, as even harder for smart people, and I mean it takes one to know one. So I feel you, um, so I don't know it's.
Jennifer Walter:So we again with the if it looks good and and if we judge it to be good, I mean basically goes back to stereotypes. Right, we make just stereotypes and for good, for better or for worse, right, we, if we have stereotypes for danger and we have stereotypes for, oh, must be trustworthy, yes, um, so to really check that, um, and and there are loads of different ways you can go out that but really kind of like do that. Then we have what you already said, kind of like a anchoring bias. We rely too heavily on the first piece of information, if that's founded, true or had a little nugget of truth, and then we just run with it and we have this like exposure thing. If we see something, a lot. May that be a certain person or a certain information shared over and over and over. We feel like, oh okay, this is uh, this must be legit right, absolutely so.
Brie Kara:It goes back to what you're saying about checking in with ourselves being open-minded, having a little bit of humbleness, and that we can get better over time. We can become more knowledgeable over time and make better decisions over time.
Jennifer Walter:So it's okay for what we're choosing in that moment and there's always the opportunity to even choose better the next time if we've been open to additional information along the way yeah, and I think it's really crucial to to realize, hey, okay, I have these two systems and I tend to be way too sure of my own judgment, even if I lack evidence and like it has a place and a purpose and I don't know to kind of like be mindful of. We always like to believe we're so rational, but but not right.
Brie Kara:No, no, we really are not. No, that's so surprising from the research is that almost everyone, most of the time, is making intuitive, emotional decisions, even if we convince ourselves that they were based purely on logic or this is a logical decision, unless we truly sit down and slowly go over every detail. For almost all of us, it's purely instinctual, it's reflective, it's type one that's really insane, though.
Jennifer Walter:Right, like even yeah, and I mean again, I'm also some someone often who's like, instead of asking I don't know the, the difficult question, uh, I don't know, is this investment a good long-term choice for me financially? I'm like what does my gut think which is like super scientific, but right, it's just, yeah, it's.
Brie Kara:We're often really irrationally yes and uh, I, I hope, I hope no one's being too hard on themselves, because for most of human history that's been okay. It's really been okay to live that way and to think that way and for us to make decisions and choices that way. What we're experiencing now is unprecedented. It is unprecedented to be exposed to this volume of disinformation, this volume of misinformation, even coming at us from so many different sources and angles and over such a long period of time in such a high volume.
Jennifer Walter:Right like it's right, stop it's ongoing 24, exactly, exactly.
Brie Kara:So if we're just talking about normal old-fashioned day-to-day living, it really is okay just to be engaging in type one most of the time. So again, it's not a criticism or anyone or our decision making processes, it's just drawing attention to this, the unprecedented situation, specifically, that that's all where we need to be more purposeful on remembering okay, this is new, this is different. I do need my system two or my type two for what it's happening over here yeah, I, I really, yeah, I really love that.
Jennifer Walter:You said that, because we are here in a scenic route, are definitely not in like the shame and blame game and it's really we first, like this is all very new ish. So we have, we, I don't know, we, we haven't really figured it out yet right, like there's research happening but we, we all don't really know. Right, as you said, there is no macro solution or macro way on how to approach this yet, like the reason we're working, research is being done and I feel, until we, we have that it's you start from the individual and changing, engaging in more critical thinking, until it kind of like ripples outwards absolutely so.
Brie Kara:I I always say I agree with you. I encourage people please continue to use your instincts, you know. Please continue to use those gut feelings. Those are important. It's just when it comes to our data sources and our decision making, when it comes to this world, this information world that we're now exposed to. That's when we need to be more thoughtful about our type two.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, is there one final thing you would like? Oh, I really want those Enneagram podcast listeners to to know this on to assure this I I do, thank you.
Brie Kara:That's a really good question and it's kind of a two part answer, and so I do want people to, no matter where they are or what they're experiencing it's really important to have hope about their own agency and hope about what they're capable of, regardless of their situation whether it's currently difficult or not, regardless of their situation whether it's currently difficult or not, and also how critical it is to maintain a trusted community. So if they don't currently have that, if they don't have trusted people within reach to them, locally in their communities, I would highly encourage them to start forming those connections, because it's those two things that really get us through any difficult times that people might be facing.
Jennifer Walter:I could not have said it better, because it is very true, we need community now more than ever, and we're seeing it being destroyed daily. So, yeah, this is really an act of defiance. We become more ungovernable when we are rooted in community. Exactly so, brie, thank you so much for being on a scenic ride with me, for nerding out on how our mind processes information. If people want to know more about you, where can they find you online?
Brie Kara:Yeah, thank you so much. I have loved being here today, so thank you for this opportunity. If anyone would like to find me online, all of my handles on all the social media platforms is at Bree Cara, and if anyone is interested in the work that I do for my business, they can find me at forecastingforsuccesscom. Perfect.
Jennifer Walter:We will link that in the show notes. So if you have any questions, like I'd say, go find Bree online and she will definitely nerd out with you on all things. System one and system two, two and why do I believe my own bullshit?
Brie Kara:thank you again for being on a scenic run with me.
Jennifer Walter:Thank you so much and just like that, we've reached the end of another journey together on the scenic route podcast. Thank you for spending time with us, curious for more stories or in search of the resources mentioned in today's episode, visit us at scenroupodcastcom for everything you need and if you're ready to embrace your scenic route, I've got something special for you. Step off the beaten path with my scenic route affirmation card deck. It's crafted for those moments when you're seeking courage, yearning to trust your inner voice and eager to carve out a path authentically, unmistakably yours. Pick your scenic route affirmation today and let it support you. Excited about where your journey might lead? I certainly am. Remember, the scenic route is not just about the destination, but the experiences, learnings and joy we discover along the way. Thank you for being here and I look forward to seeing you on the scenic route again.
