Scenic Route, Social Change and Mental Health Conversations for Perfectionists
You’ve outgrown perfection, but not your desire to grow.
This is the place where high-functioners, deep feelers, and quiet rebels come home to themselves.
We explore:
- Mental health wisdom (minus toxic positivity)
- Social change (that starts from within)
- System critiques (with actionable solutions)
- Inner wisdom (over external validation)
- Mindfulness for minimalists (no crystals required)
Join Jennifer Walter, sociologist (MASoc UCC) and recovering perfectionist, for weekly conversations that blend critical thinking with oh-so-much compassion.
If you’re questioning everything – or just trying to stay grounded in a chaotic world – this space is for you. We make room for your inner critic and collective action. Because personal healing and social change go hand in hand (with a side of potty humour).
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
The longest way round is the shortest way home – and that's exactly why we're taking the Scenic Route.
Ready to walk the scenic route?
The view here is *chef's kiss.*
Scenic Route, Social Change and Mental Health Conversations for Perfectionists
The Weight We Carry: How Our Bodies Hold Stress – And What to Do About It feat. Michelle Sabatini
Why do we feel exhausted even when life looks “fine” on the outside?
In this episode of Scenic Route, we explore the quiet, invisible weight so many of us carry—and how our bodies often hold onto stress, tension, and emotional labor in ways we don’t even notice.
Zurich-based body therapist Michelle Sabbatini joins Jennifer Walter to discuss the difference between having a body and being one and how tuning into our physical sensations can be the first step toward healing and resilience.
What we unpack together:
- The disconnect between how we feel and what we think we should feel
- Why perfectionism, caregiving, and mental load leave us chronically depleted
- The tension we don’t notice until it’s unbearable
- Why it’s so hard to say “I need help”—and how to start
- Two grounding breathwork practices to help you come back to yourself
This episode is for anyone who's been feeling drained, disconnected, or “not quite right”— and wants to start coming home to their body in a grounded, compassionate way.
See you on the Scenic Route.
Connect with Michelle
Michelle Sabbatini’s practice: bodylearning.ch
Follow her on LinkedIn
Book a session with Michelle
Don't forget to mention "Scenic Route" to reclaim her special offer of a free session!
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Visit jenniferwalter.me – your cosy corner where recovering perfectionists, misfits, and those done pretending to be fine find space to breathe, dream, and create real change."
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you, you, you. There is a different way to think about mental health, and it starts with slowing down. Sometimes, the longest way around is the shortest way home, and that's exactly why we're taking the scenic route. Hi, I'm Jennifer Walter, host of the Scenic Route podcast. Think of me as your sociologist, sister in arms and rebel with many causes. Together, we're blending critical thinking with compassion, mental health with a dash of rebellion, and personal healing with collective change. We're trading perfectionism for possibility and toxic positivity for messy growth. Each week, we're exploring the path to better mental health and social transformation. And yes, by the way, pretty crystals are totally optional. You ready to take the scenic route? Let's walk this path together.
Jennifer Walter:With a master's degree in psychology and over 20 years of experience as a body therapist, michelle Sabatini supports clients in reconnecting with their bodies and transforming what limits or troubles them. Through body awareness, breathwork and uncovering automatic patterns, she guides individuals towards greater clarity and resilience. In her one-on-one sessions in Zurich, switzerland, she works regularly with clients facing discomfort, stress, pain, low energy, lack of motivation and recurring behavioral patterns. Alongside her individual work, she leads group sessions and writes insightful articles focused on integrating body awareness into everyday life. Michelle, welcome to the Cinegroud podcast.
Michelle Sabatini:Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
Jennifer Walter:Well, thank you so much for coming, inviting me.
Jennifer Walter:Well, thank you so much for coming, and I feel we I need to add a disclaimer before we start, that michelle is a part of my trusted team of physician, therapists, counselors, coaches that I've curated over the years and, um, so if ever, uh, you feel like, how does she know?
Jennifer Walter:She knows because we've been working together and I've invited michelle over because she recently posted something on linkedin that I wanted to bring to all my scenic ride listeners because I think it's really, really resonating with me and, I think, with a lot of you in these like precarious times that we're, we find ourselves in. And, michelle, you were posting something very profound Like we have to we have to kind of like collectively or individually as well, move from having a body to being a body, and I really had to sit with this for a moment because our language, in our cultural emphasis, is so much on having a body instead of being a body. So what is the key difference for you, where's the distinction between having a body versus being a body, versus being a body, and how does this impact our relationship we have with ourselves and our mental health?
Michelle Sabatini:thank you, you did not come for easy questions here but maybe, maybe I will also start large and then focus on focusing in, I think, that this distinction between having and being, or the separation, then we can observe. We find it a bit everywhere, it's not just within ourselves, but we have relationship, we have a partner, we have kids and then sometimes we become a bit too centered in possession of having and with human beings and other beings is very much. I would say maybe it's more important about being, in your case, being a mother, being a partner, being a friend, and then when we, as you see, when we sit with this difference very intuitively, we notice that it's not the same I have a bunch of friends or I am a good friend. The implications are very different, friend. The implication are very different in in the relationship with ourself.
Michelle Sabatini:I really loved and you use this term relationship because it's also what I wanted to point out is then we can go around the fact that we have a body and then allow us to go to work, to do stuff. To go to work, to do stuff, to think, to work, to shower, to put makeup and jewelry and dress is one aspect of being alive, and the other is what do we feel and what do. We perceive through the whole body, and this is a completely different experience Theoretically experience theoretically the mind and the and the rest of the body should be aligned and work together.
Michelle Sabatini:But in our current society, the, the mind, gets so much inputs and we know all about what we should do, how, how long, blah, blah, blah then we we kind of forget to check in. If it's actually is true for us, if we feel it in this way, if it's it is working for us this is a personal experience then it's not a recipe and then it can be quite um confusing for people at least this is what I notice in my practice because you know what you should do and then the, the personal experience, is talking about something very different.
Jennifer Walter:So yeah, no, please go, no, no, go, go you, no, no. It's really interesting kind of this concept of cognitive intelligence and somatic intelligence right exactly, and I know this was a really hard one for me as well, because I was able to rely so much on my cognitive intelligence. For I mean, I'm thankful for it and it got me through. It got me through where I am and it it was hard to like learn how to balance things again yeah, I mean.
Michelle Sabatini:you will also notice that I'm using in my language a dichotomy like we have a head or a mind and a body. Actually we are one. As I said at the beginning, they only uncomfortable, but the uncomfortable part is the more difficult to welcome. So when we don't feel so well, one easy strategy for the mind is to ignore, we put it by side, and then we continue to function, especially when we have obligation or we feel we have obligation, we want to be a good employee, we want to succeed at work and we feel. Then it's better to feel, to look strong and reliable and not to show vulnerabilities. All these kinds of things are very true, by the way. So one strategy that many of us apply, me included, is to say ah, emotional or difficult feeling, we put it by side, we deal with them after.
Michelle Sabatini:And after never comes, and after never comes, and after never comes, and then we don't, we get out of the practice to assess how is going, what is going on inside us, and then we accumulate things and it can be very, very uncomfortable after a while. So people carry also, let's say, very bad experiences, traumatic experiences, abusive experiences, but also the fact to accumulate the daily base, stresses of pressure, depending of what kind of type you are, can be very, very, very stressful for the body physically.
Jennifer Walter:I think this is a really important point. We usually talk about rightly so also about really traumatic experiences, and it's good that we have more. And it's good that we have more. They are more in our public conscious and I see it also with my clients that they're kind of like, oh, but you know I'm not feeling well and but I haven't had anything traumatic happen, right, like I. There wasn't maybe obvious abuse in my childhood or from past employee employers or anything. So I don't even know why I feel like this, and I think this is so important that you said that, right, it's the accumulation of years, of years of kind of like these micro traumatic experiences, that kind of like build up and then you're suddenly like, why do I feel like this? Nothing happened right.
Michelle Sabatini:Yeah, it's also a bit the irony of having a mind when people say this nothing happened. I should not feel like this is like okay, this, this assessment is a bit bizarre it's the mind surely talking, but it's also indicated that in ourselves we have blind spot and it's not so easy.
Michelle Sabatini:For example, for many people is difficult to to answer the question what do you need to recover your energy, for example? And honestly, it's not so easy to answer this question and people have to really think and the most sad is when they realize, actually I don't know, what do I need why do you think it is so hard for so many of us to answer this question?
Michelle Sabatini:I think that I mean for many, especially women, but also men we are so focusing on what we need to do. Then we mix up what we need to do for outside with what we need to do for inside, and it's not the same. You can be extremely rewarded to be a good employee, to take care of your family, to do everything on the script and still not feeling well at the end of the day. And also this is confusing because people say hey, everybody says then I'm working well, then I'm a super mother, a super partner, a super daughter, and then why I don't feel well?
Jennifer Walter:I mean, it is really confusing and unsettling yeah, because you're putting in a lot of effort, you're trying really hard, you're think, okay, I, I don't really know what's going on, but this feels like this is the playbook, those are the rules, and if I follow the rules I mean we've been told this most of us as children if you do well in school, you get a good job, you feel good, you feel happy, you have money right. It has been reinforced through our education system and so we feel we have this playbook, we play by the rules, we are being good mothers, good daughters, good employees, good anything, but our lives don't feel good, yes, so how do we start untangling this mess?
Michelle Sabatini:so we can. I think that the the basic, really, really basic, is normally is to make an assessment, a physical assessment, and the question, the first question, is is why we feel tense? If everything is going well, then the body should respond to these effects by being relaxed.
Jennifer Walter:But often it doesn't happen.
Michelle Sabatini:And I think this is always a good start in a self-reflection or change in how we think about ourselves With this question why am I tense, why am I stressed, why am I under pressure? And this allows us to open another way of thinking about ourselves, in a more personal way, about ourselves in a more personal way, do we?
Michelle Sabatini:Then I give you just a few examples, for example. Then we can notice that for many people the option that you may disappoint someone is absolutely unbearable. The option of making mistakes is like I'm dying on the spot. The option to say no, I cannot, is even not an option actually in the script. And then you start to see actually I can only, I feel like I can only, let's say, give or perform, and of course then this cannot be forever. Energy cannot only flow outside.
Jennifer Walter:You have to replenish, yes as well. Do we also have to go back on? I feel yes, when you say okay, yeah, you, you notice what? Do you feel tension? But I would challenge do people actually, do we actually realize when we feel tension? Right, but maybe tension is a bad example, but do we actually feel? Do we actually take enough time to articulate why this tension might be or are, if we are tired or if it's fatigue or like how can we make sense of all these things?
Michelle Sabatini:right. That is, it's not so easy, it's true. I would say this is the advantage of having a body. Then the body will produce, let's say, symptoms or sensation. They will indicate us can I say I'm relaxed or not? So you have all the physical symptoms or experiences I use. You mentioned being always tired, being exhausted. Then you have all the the sensations connecting with pain headaches, muscle aches, problem, indigestion, not sleeping well and not digesting well all the basic, basic things. Then there are other aspects like are you moving enough? Are you taking care of eating well enough and drinking enough? I don't know, water, tea.
Michelle Sabatini:It's not that now we have to be to say dogmatic about what we eat or or how we drink, but it's just a way of reflecting about how much time am I nourishing myself. This is one part, and the second is everything emotionally. Are you, are you joyful in your life? Do you have pleasures in your life? You, you dedicate so much to job, family, do you, do you feel the sense of love and rewarding and being considered? And then this can be difficult, but it's also a way of saying yeah, actually I'm giving so much and I have the impression that I'm taking for granted. This is how many women is.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, I feel this strongly resonates. I'm like we feel there's very little reciprocity and we're giving out so much with very little in it return, and and sometimes it's also um, we can change that and and if we cannot change that, we have to I don't know move to drop more drastic measures.
Michelle Sabatini:Um yes, but sometimes just to acknowledge, because we say before, from being a body means to listen what the body send up as information, and sometimes just to sit down a moment and say, actually I'm not so satisfied and something is missing. At least we have the chance to to, to do something, to try something, and then is also a way of investing the energy, our energy, in a different way, for ourselves yeah I think you said the people we love yeah, true, the work we do ripples outwards into our children, our family, our friends, our society.
Jennifer Walter:I think it's a good point, like you said. Ok, you need to sit down and listen, and isn't that something a lot of us struggle with per se? I think in learning to, or relearning to understand our body's signals, we need to slow way more down than what we might be comfortable with.
Michelle Sabatini:Absolutely, yes, absolutely. I have also to say this is my personal experience. I find it extremely difficult to do it alone, to have someone I mean someone can be a therapist like me, but can be I don't know everybody able to just give you the space to express something and then you can say it and feel it and integrate it and embody it. I mean our conditions. They're not so obvious in our society today. I think everybody has this frustrating experience to go to a friend and say, oh, this happened to the work, and then everybody say you should not care, I'm caring. No man, don't forget about this, move on. Oh, I have this problem with my partner. Oh, you know, men's are all the same. Okay, thank you. What I do is the one yes, this is.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, this is an interesting point. At the same, like we're some, we're validating, but not really validating how others are feeling yes, it is really the fact of feeling something.
Michelle Sabatini:Also, when you share with a friend something difficult, it means that this friend, in this moment, needs to feel what you feel, and it is not easy.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah I I've, personally, I've really struggled with this because I I immediately jumped into problem solving mode, right, oh, like, okay, you feel bad, how can I fix this for you? And now I've really started to, when someone was sharing something with me, I've really started like listen, would you like my support as just kind of like a space to dump it and process it, dump it and process it, or would you like my support in like finding a tangible, right now, next step solution? So just that we're kind of clear and I'm not like jumping ahead when you all you need is witnessing someone, having someone to witness and to process with yeah, this is a very good practice.
Michelle Sabatini:If I may add something, yeah, please, please.
Jennifer Walter:This is. This is all work in progress, because I just me of sometimes not reading social cues, right?
Michelle Sabatini:I think what you say is a very, very practical way of position ourself for someone else. But we can also practice something for ourselves is to feel what the person is saying, because normally, very often, what the person share with us, we have experiences about that frustration, pain, feeling not recognized or not valued. We have personal experiences and then it gave us the chance to quick tap in ourselves on the on the same experience and there is nothing to say, say yes, I know it sucks and then you can say I I say if you would like to have my expertise yeah, I'm happy to help now or in the future.
Jennifer Walter:This is just bringing up something and I feel, maybe also a part of this, why I feel people, our age group and I mean Gen Z and like Gen Zs and alphas, they hopefully will have other issues to deal with, but this whole jumping into fixing mode, or oh, it's not that bad, just move on Right. I remember when I I don't know, when I was a kid maybe four or five years old, and I would like scrape my knee, it like the the thing I'd heard is like, oh, that that's not so bad. I, yeah, that's not so bad. Like no need to cry about this, let's move on right. Um, so it is all of this kind of like I mean, yeah, it's very practical thing to move for on, because you need to get on with your day and like it does this now, but it's not very validating of your emotions.
Michelle Sabatini:So it all started very early on, I suppose, for most of us because we learn this self-assessment through the assessment of our parents normally the mother or the caretaking and then when they say whatever you feel physically, emotionally, is nothing, again it's getting confusing because you get in your head the information ah, it's not important, I should not feel what I'm feeling. And then what we do, we do something with our body Normally the muscles are involved, the breathing is involved in order not to feel what we are actually feeling. I think this is a good experience. By the way, making a big drama is the same because also, oh my god, now I did something and everybody is panicking, so also not good, but to say yes it's painful.
Michelle Sabatini:Now we do something for the knee, and now we go because yeah, we took care of this. The outside, the inside I don't know if I can use this expression shit happened.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, we took care of this the outside, the inside I don't know if I can use this expression shit happened. Yeah, we continue. We have said worse on this podcast, but it's so true, right, and especially for all people who grew up to be being socialized as women. We always hear this like you're too much, this is too emotional. You're too emotional, you're, and and right you're. You're raising your voice for something that is important to you. You might not understand in the moment why, but something is triggering you and you're like no, and then you often get this response of too emotional, too loud, too aggressive to whatever not enough nice, yeah polite yeah.
Jennifer Walter:So we really need to start looking at this and dissecting this and relearning to trust the signals our bodies are sending, like that, if we feel anger, or if we feel resentment or you feel tense about tension, to really be like okay, my body's really saying I'm not okay with this, whatever this is, but I'm not okay. No.
Michelle Sabatini:Yeah, in a certain way, I think that many people maybe all of us, but sure Many people find themselves in an adult age then have to learn how to exactly give space to a part of the personal experiences. That was always suppressed, I guess, for many men is how to allow emotional pain or vulnerability without having the impression that now they are falling apart and then they are not there, are completely failure or I don't know exactly what is the, the experience that may be for different person and it can be extremely, extremely difficult, because we build ourselves in a way and when we need to change it physically, not only emotionally, it's really a body transformation. It can be very, very, very difficult. A body transformation can be very, very, very difficult For many women. Just the idea to say now I have to go to my family and say no, they struggle like hell and they realize that it's not connected with others. It's really connected with them.
Michelle Sabatini:Then others also don't help, because it's very nice to have someone doing everything at home and it's annoying when to have someone doing everything at home and it's annoying and say from now on, please, you wash your clothes, you help in the kitchen once a week, you cook dinner, because I'm also working and I have other things to do, and then you will have frictions. No, yes, it can be unpleasant that's another thing.
Jennifer Walter:Um, I'm glad that you bring the unpleasantness up. Um, okay, okay, I want to come back to the unpleasantness uh later, because this is very, very important. Um, but it's, yes, right, we have to expect friction. If we change something, the change process in itself will not be pleasant, most likely 99.9 of all the time I cannot sell it in a different way.
Jennifer Walter:I'm sorry no, no, it's right, it's okay. Um, I, I cannot, neither, um, but how can we, how can we start to to practice this right, if there surely are? There are things where you're like, when you've listened to this, I'm sure some of you had already, like in there, had mental imagery of situations where you're like yeah, I really would like to change this. I'm really I don't know like my partner to pick up the kids from daycare or to cook dinner or wash dishes or whatever. Um, and that thing, as you've said, it can feel overwhelming is, is there a way to kind of practice, like taking teeny, tiny steps so that we can ask for the big thing, or do we just have to suck it up and ask for the big thing?
Michelle Sabatini:let's say that for practical and strategical to say and thinking the, the small steps are easier. Some people are very explosive and they would go in big change, and most of us are. They need a small, small step, otherwise we would not be able to hold the whole situation and then it is backfire against us and this is not the aim. But if you are working, you want to work on this by yourself. I would recommend two things one is to focus on one situation and the second, once then you have the situation, is to just train yourself to give yourself legitimate about what you feel.
Michelle Sabatini:Let's say you say I would like my partner then it's also the father or the mother of my kids to be more involved in, for example, going to the Kitta school and help them. Then you can say then maybe you already talk about this and he already explained why this is not possible. And then one way to work on this is first just to sit down and feel what you feel. Then it means when you try to to be relaxed, to breathe, to recognize this kind of pain, until you notice that your body is not so much under pressure or tension and it can be a bit more relaxed. Now we are talking about being relaxed with things that are really really not easy Frustration, feeling, taking advantage of, feeling that you did a bigger mistake of your life. I mean, it can be very, very tough. The only thing that this I can promise you once then we allow, give the legitimation to those kind of things, they start to change.
Jennifer Walter:So, the moment we say I acknowledge that I feel this tension or this anger, that moment it will shift.
Michelle Sabatini:Yes, very, very often, a certain moment they will. Something will start to change in the body. After this, I always recommend to try some actions, and this also is very pleasant, because normally it means that you have to have a kind of fight for your, for your needs and your rights you don't have. You can also say, actually, I now acknowledge in this I am alone, I cry in my eyes out and okay, yeah, or maybe this is also the there is no solution in this season, right? And maybe.
Jennifer Walter:I mean maybe it's just not possible, right, maybe this month, but maybe next month, right, like, or once something has I mean yes, maybe when your children are little or very little, they might depend more on the mother, depending on whatever gazillions of reasons. That's okay, if you know, this is the season we're in.
Michelle Sabatini:Yes, then then sometimes we have, we have also to remind, then maybe we want something from a specific person because in our head he or she must do it, but maybe there are other people they are willing to do it. Or, as often is happening now in a city like Zurich, you can say, okay, I pay someone or ask other mothers and then once I am the one picking up three kids, and another time is someone else. So it means then once in the week I will have a bit more time for the things I need to do, because also the working with emotions is to nourish what we think and how we think, in order to expand, not to become more fixated with the fact that then our partner is not doing what we need yeah, so kind of like also release our expectations of what a specific person needs to provide for us.
Jennifer Walter:Yes, this brings me to another um point. I often read I mean I, if you've listened to this podcast, I'm an intersectional feminist like this is. I'm harping on about this, on and on and on and on um. There's, however, a topic that sometimes comes up when I'm like on social media and listening to other people and comments and stuff, where I'm kind of like torn and I would like to hear your expertise because it feels it fits perfectly into this. Right, this is this kind of thing of placing expectations on partnership, and the context is like very much of these, oh, if I have to ask him to do this, it's not real support, right, it's not taking things off my mental load. I kind of want him to know that he should do this, and I get where this is coming from, and at the same time, I think this is incredibly dangerously slippery road. So what, what's your take on us, magically knowing what our partners want in our heads so we can like yes.
Michelle Sabatini:This is one of the funniest things happening. You find yourself having experiences, all your clients saying the same it's not possible that he doesn't see it.
Jennifer Walter:women yes, it's possible how can you not see that, like the laundry needs to be done, there are no clean clothes in the closet. There's a huge pile of laundry.
Michelle Sabatini:So, but this is something interesting because when, when this happened, we are in the head, it's so obvious that he is wrong, that this is clear and it's not possible if he's not connecting with bad will. But this is all in the head. The question is, why is so difficult to go to the person that said he will love you for the rest of his life to say, man, I would need you to do this, this and this. And I think this is much more interesting because we end up doing it when we are already about to strangle the fucking bastard. But this is too late. Why? Why we didn't do it at the beginning? Why is so difficult and this is too late, why we didn't do it at the beginning? Why is it so difficult and this is much more interesting for women to say why is it so difficult to take responsibility and say this is what I need.
Michelle Sabatini:You cannot relax on the couch, because other needs are there. In a family of two, three, four, five, maybe more, if you have animals and voila, you need to take care. It's difficult because we have experiences, normally with parents or family members, and those are the moment of conflict. So we avoid the conflict, we swallow and then we explode or we become resentful and distant and the guy still don't get it.
Jennifer Walter:What is wrong?
Michelle Sabatini:yeah, he comes and asks and what happened?
Jennifer Walter:yeah, like I think it's really beautiful that you you've raised um, this right, like it's we, we have to. It gives like this reframe of oh, it's actually way more interesting to ask why we as women have such a hard time saying I need this from, I need you to do this. It gives us way much of a shared way forward. Then why doesn't he know this? I like this feels like a cul-de-sac. It's not going anywhere. It goes down to shame and blame.
Jennifer Walter:And, yes, are there a gazillion of men who should do fucking more at home? Yes, absolutely. But I don't know, marinating in this, it doesn't feel all that interesting because it doesn't really give us anywhere. And, as you've said, when suddenly you've always been doing the laundry and suddenly you're like exploding over doing the laundry, I can't like I can see, I can be compassionate and see how someone else who has had the laundry taken care of is like oh, what happened now? And to kind of like bridge this gap. So I really think, yeah, this reframe is really interesting to be more like oh, why is it then so hard for you to to stand up for what you need in this moment?
Michelle Sabatini:And, if I may reconnect with our topic, it's also a way of being a body. It means then you can focus and say I really noticed and this is what I need. This is the frustrations I'm experiencing.
Michelle Sabatini:This is the frustrations I'm experiencing and by focusing on something that is more personal, it is also taking away pressure on why the other person is so stupid not to see it, and it's a way also to take more responsibility. And if there is a problem, it is get to work together on that. At least you notice soon enough. Then you can develop other strategies, instead of deplete completely your energy by by being the cleaning lady at your house or or whatever is.
Michelle Sabatini:Yeah yeah, I think it opens up the possibility for other solutions, for sure, and and the work is the same because also something that I hear so much I mean women noticing everything going on in the office, how people are feeling emotionally giving support and being there when someone else is in in in trouble, helping and supporting in any kind of way, then at the end of the year all those actions don't appear anywhere because there is no, yeah, yeah. They can't really be logical.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, feedback forms and stuff. Yeah.
Michelle Sabatini:And that is so frustrating. I mean, it's one of the most important, uh, let's say, service that you can do in a team of people. People notice they are recognized, are very, are very grateful. But then in the business or the, in this kind of professionality, our offices, most offices working, then this is become again invisible.
Jennifer Walter:Oh, yeah, it's definitely the visible labor. And then if you have external strategizers, optimizers, coming in, those are most likely the professions that will be cut out.
Michelle Sabatini:The first because, oh, they haven't done anything but also then to take and I would say in this sense, to take responsibility and say, hey, this week or this month I spent so much hour trying to support my colleagues. It's not a feeling, it's hour. I can tell you what happened, check with the other person. I want this to be recognized because this is a service very important and I give it to this office or to this environment for people to work. But it's so uncomfortable for women to say, hey, this is what they did. Men are much better on that they have other challenges.
Jennifer Walter:Actually they didn't do they just delegate, yeah?
Jennifer Walter:yeah that's the same thing when I don't know job, the job description. If you apply for a job, the job description is like men, they fit, like 70, they apply and women have to feel like there's a hundred percent match and then they're gonna apply. It's like, yeah, but I want to come back um something which is really, really important. A lot of us don't take enough time to realize going into a change process will cause friction and will be uncomfortable. Any change will be uncomfortable. Any change will be uncomfortable.
Jennifer Walter:And I don't know at least in my experience, I didn't really sit down and think about how the change process will make me feel. I just know, oh, this is my goal. I know this goal will make me feel X, y, z about myself. And then I started the process going towards that and I felt like shit was like nah, not gonna do it, like I feel we. This shows up for us as a collective, as a society, and it translates down to our very personal, like bodies, we, I feel we have such a low tolerance of being at peace with unpleasantness. Yes, right, but it's a weird. It's a weird duality. At the same time, I can take on so much shit. So much shit. I can be a march. Much shit, so much shit. I can be a marcher of a thousand things and I have zero tolerance for unpleasantness Like why, how, michelle? Like make it make sense.
Michelle Sabatini:If I may reformulate, I don't think I I mean depends on which kind of unpleasantness, because if your son, your friends, your clients are going through a tough period, you don't have any problem in being there for them, feeling with them, supporting them, no problem. It's often our own unpleasantness and I think it's because we feel wrong. We feel that something is not okay in us and then our system does something like panicking. If I want to go there and I feel not good, it means that something is wrong with me.
Michelle Sabatini:We often turn it that we are the problem, that we don't legitimate what we are feeling, and then if something is unpleasant, it means that we are wrong, not that it's normal, not that it's part of developing resources in order to so the first time I go and ask for a rise of my salary, maybe I do it really bad because I'm tense and then I'm angry and then I say no, and then what I do?
Jennifer Walter:you never ask again, because it was a bad experience then we need to say, ah, fuck, this was unpleasant.
Michelle Sabatini:Maybe I didn't do so well and he blah blah blah or she blah blah blah. What I do six months, I go again and then I prepare. Yeah then maybe, yeah, you take the data, you see what you can change and do again and one part of the data is to say it's really really, really uncomfortable, it's really really tough to ask for something. It's really difficult to say, hey, I'm so good, I deserve this. Please recognize, and it's like many other things we need practice to learn how to do it well.
Jennifer Walter:So how can we?
Michelle Sabatini:learn. It's like running the marathon.
Jennifer Walter:I mean.
Michelle Sabatini:I don't recommend to run a marathon.
Jennifer Walter:Good.
Michelle Sabatini:We're not runners here, but for the clients that do this, when they train, you do exactly this. You start and you start small, and then a big long, then long and then break, and then you have a strategy. But with muscles and the, let's say, the inner muscles, is the same. We need to train in order, then the, the body can adapt, learn. Okay, this is a bit too much, this is okay. What is my strategy?
Jennifer Walter:so what is my way of asking, of saying no, not everybody is the same I also think we, our ego, overestimates how small we have to go with practicing our muscles. Right, I'd say. I'd say most of us, if we're like, let's stick with the running example, because we're like, oh yeah, I can run a kilometer in I don't know how many minutes, then we actually do it and we realize, yeah, far off, we need to start with running 400 meters, 300, 200, 100, like how, how, how do we know if, if something is, if, if an action is too small or too big? Like how, if we're, how can we? Where do we find the balance of challenging ourselves enough so the muscle grows, and not picking a too small goal so we just feel good but don't grow?
Michelle Sabatini:my friend. Unfortunately, only experience will tell you.
Jennifer Walter:I hate this it's always that you learn by doing yeah, I know okay, because for everybody is different.
Michelle Sabatini:This is the the danger now, because I, I, whatever I'm saying, it would be wrong because depends of people. Some people are more, let's say, they have more energy. They're a bit more, let's say, tough. They can take things and they enjoy and they fight. Oh, they are very delicate and they are very sensitive. You see, it depends. Yes, love this answer, but you can say if I would like to have more energy, I would like to feel more alive, I would like to have more satisfactions, very basic I would like to be recognized, I would like to have more time. You can try to have aspect, then you can measure, then you can recognize, not just um, I don't know, not only air something, then you can measure.
Michelle Sabatini:I would like to have more time for resting, cooking holidays with my friends, sport, whatever, and then you will see if this is appear or not. I would like to be recognized at work. You will see if this is a peer or not. I would like to be recognized at work. You will see if this is a peer or not. I would like my partner to be a bit more sensitive with whatever, and then you will see if this is a peer or not. I would like not to consume all my time in doing stuff and then you will see if you manage and how you manage. But you can recognize after by observing the results. Yeah, then sometimes the small steps will be very give a lot of energy back, and sometimes not. This is not. It's also not individual. I mean, we are not alone. We are all in connection with other people and situations. So we have really to be humble in the fact that we can do certain things, but the, the condition around us also have a big impact on us?
Jennifer Walter:oh yes, of course.
Michelle Sabatini:We are a product of all the conditions we're in as well but this is also difficult because the mind would be would be more at ease with things that are easy to calculate. And now we are talking about things they are not so easy to calculate and you need to really pay attention to a broad spectrum about feeling well, being more satisfied, having more time, are objective things but are not so objective actually. It's not so easy to determine it, but it's also interesting because it requires us to be more attentive to okay, what is my assessment now and yesterday and tomorrow, and so on and so on, and then we will start to to perceive changes or to see changes. Sometimes it's very very concrete.
Jennifer Walter:Oh yeah, it can be very concrete very fast, and sometimes it takes longer.
Jennifer Walter:But if this is a really crucial piece, we again yes, there is no playbook and to see the liberty in this like it really comes down to, you need to know yourself, and you already do. Maybe you have to kind of reconnect with yourself, but you already yourself, which is also a very good thing If ever anyone tries to sell you shit you don't need. But, yeah, really this crucial thing of pausing and getting in touch with yourself again and I know you only said it, it, I think, two or three times uh, this part, this conversation, the word brief, which, funny enough, you don't know this, listeners, but when in my sessions with michelle, every she always interrupts me with and now we breathe because I'm like um, so I know breath, breathwork is a very one of your very preferred modalities. If I can say this, um is there. Can you walk us through one of your favorite breathwork exercises that we can do to, I don't know, slow down, even when we're super busy and kind of like see how we're actually feeling and what we're actually needing?
Michelle Sabatini:Yes, I would be very happy to do this. Let me just say something about breathing, because I'm so passionate.
Jennifer Walter:Please do.
Michelle Sabatini:Of course everybody breathes for survival, but actually breathe can do much more for us and for everybody Because, as Jennifer mentioned, it is a very practical way to slow down. It is a very practical way to feel the body. If you breathe and then you notice you don't feel anything, now you know, then there is something that is not okay. If you breathe and you notice you cannot breathe deep, beside the survival thing, you know, then you are too tense. It give us so much basic information. Is is amazing and then if you keep doing whatever exercise there are a million, if you practice yoga, there are even more it will change the way you are in the body just because of expanding while inhaling and then when you breathe out, the volume reduces. It's like you do a massage inside you. It's very, very, very efficient if you don't have any time to do anything.
Michelle Sabatini:This will make a difference. It is proven. I mean, it's not coming from me, you're a bit researcher about recovery from surgery or from whatever. It is very practical. I mean you have people meditating. Basically they focus on breathing in a certain way. There are several techniques and these allow.
Jennifer Walter:I mean you oxygen to replenish and allow incredibly spiritual experiences.
Michelle Sabatini:So if you this is one part and the second because we were talking about basically how to be in the body means to welcome uncomfortable experiences. Breathing is the very basic way to say okay, now I will breathe with my anger, my frustration, my pain, my sense of being not evaluated, not recognized, and then, for a moment, I give myself this gift to, I welcome this part of myself that normally doesn't have a space to to be to be.
Michelle Sabatini:Thank you, yeah, I was like this is probably where you wanted to go yeah, actually the, the breathing exercise that I would like you to practice, require a bit of preparation, and so, if you agree, I would recommend two breathing exercises.
Michelle Sabatini:Sure, and the one is very, really, very easy and it's just to breathe in and breathe out, counting until four, and the idea is that if you count, the mind will be a bit busy in counting and not in the way of three million of other things. Okay, then, it is a way to to focus a bit more on the, on the breath, and then, because you count until four and you try to do it as low as possible, it will make your breath a bit deeper and slower, because often, when we breathe in survival mode, it's a bit superficial and fast and this signals a state that is close to stress. So we want to now to send messages to everybody. Now is a moment, it's okay, we're safe. We take the moment, breathe in and to breathe out, so we can practice two minutes together. You can close your eyes, yeah.
Jennifer Walter:Just before this, just to to, I'm curious do we is the in breath also four or longer as four or shorter, or in out four? Ah, okay, four, four okay, easy.
Michelle Sabatini:Yeah, this is warming up so you can try to sit with a straight back or, if you lie down, try to have a straight back, an open chest, relaxed shoulders. You can close your eyes and then you try to breathe in, counting until four, and breathe out, counting until four. And you keep doing this. And you keep doing this with the aim to take the time to inhale and exhale quite long or longer than usual and slower than usual for me.
Jennifer Walter:It really helps me to visualize my, my lungs expanding, my belly expanding and and this is some will be like now well, chen, of course. But what was really interesting for me was that the lungs obviously don't just expand to the front, but also to the back, and in my head it was always just to the front and not really to the back.
Michelle Sabatini:So if you're like, visualize this at some point, it's mind-blowing but it's a very practical way of being, because you have a a physical experience, then it means then your body is, is much more present, just by the fact that you can feel the three-dimensionality, the movement.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, anyway, listen and try to visualize you actually breathing in 3D, which you are, and try to visualize you actually breathing in 3D, which you are, and for some people like you it will bring something in the mind.
Michelle Sabatini:For other people it would just calm it down. Depends a bit what kind of type you are. For some people, breathing will be very much connected with colors. Oh interesting, I am a very physical person. For me is always connecting with physical sensations. Yeah, other people maybe. If you practice meditation you will have this kind of sense of the waves coming and going and then you suddenly you have the noise of the ocean in your hair. Really depends what.
Jennifer Walter:What kind of type they can like all is good, all is good. Right, it is what is is right. It's not good or bad, if you see, if you feel more attuned to your body or to colors or to whatever, that's okay.
Michelle Sabatini:Yes my recommendation would be be sure that you feel something physical inside your body. Then you are not completely in your head just because of the topic of being a body and being, yeah, I'm sure, inside yourself. Yeah, but yeah, it's a self-discovery. Is what? What are your resources? What are what is working for you?
Jennifer Walter:would you like to share? I can tell you some people.
Michelle Sabatini:You ask them to count, in their mind they have a crisis. You don't have to count if it doesn't work for you. You can have a sense of time connecting with inhaling and a sense of time connecting with exhaling.
Jennifer Walter:Yeah, I suppose always modify any exercise where you feel it suits you best. You can re-bend. No, I'm fine with counting. It keeps my mind occupied. I actually quite like the counting.
Michelle Sabatini:This would be a warm-up to expand a bit and to and to warm up the muscles. And the one exercise that I find very practical for several reasons, is the one where we breathe in four, we breathe out six and then we hold eight. It seems a bit strange, but actually it's not so so difficult, and the idea is to change the the the ratio between oxygen and co2 in our body.
Michelle Sabatini:So actually oxygen is always at the same quantity. I mean, we, we cannot do without. But when we breathe out and we stay a bit, uh, and we hold, we consume more the co2. I'm not a scientist, as you see I'm not sure that is a good enough explanation, but I can give better references. Sorry for that. And then it has an effect on relaxation, on stress management, on calmness in the head.
Jennifer Walter:It's a very efficient exercise.
Michelle Sabatini:Okay, we can try to do it together, or four In four out six hold in eight.
Jennifer Walter:Oh, okay, yeah, let's do two rounds of that and see Okay, so we give everyone a chance to kind of like practice it too if you're listening in, because otherwise you're like, oh, oh, this is such a cool exercise, I will, let's do this podcast episode again when I need it, and you'll never do. That's why we're doing it now and this exercise.
Michelle Sabatini:You don't do it if you are driving.
Jennifer Walter:Only yes, okay, yes, okay, yes of course, if you're driving, operating, having machinery or i't know, see your kids playing with scissors don't do it right now.
Michelle Sabatini:Because it depends. It can also give some strange sensations in the head. So just do it when you know that you're relaxed.
Jennifer Walter:That's your only excuse. Otherwise, if you're not doing any of those things, you've got to join us now. So two rounds, yeah, I'd say.
Michelle Sabatini:We breathe in Four Out six Eight Hold eight. In four In four out six out eight. One more In four Out six Hold A Inhale, and six and eight.
Jennifer Walter:And you can breathe freely. This was an interesting observation while holding the eight.
Michelle Sabatini:Yeah, that was really interesting it also has an effect on, in a certain way, on resilience, because it's very strange for the body if you are not used because of sport or physical activity. It's very strange for the body to hold when it's empty. It's like okay, something is not okay, but it's possible, we can do it, and it's really giving the some kind of confidence that we can do it. It has really an effect then in our also in our mental resilience.
Jennifer Walter:I can really recommend to practice this.
Jennifer Walter:It's really the word I I was trying to. I was looking for resilience, because the first time I I'd hold it the eight I was really like it felt going against the grain, like it was really hard, like I'm like no, I'm like I need to breathe, I I'm like I can't, I need. And then it's really like, oh okay, the eight is it's gone, it's and it's yeah, it's like I see that it's really like oh okay, the eight is it's gone, it's and it's yeah. I see that it can really be a great exercise for resilience.
Michelle Sabatini:And then you don't have to force anything. If you feel not, okay, it means then you need to practice a bit more, and you can always adapt to the numbers. You can also have four, four, four, and then you can expand. Yeah, also have 4, 4, 4.
Jennifer Walter:And then you can expand. Yeah, exactly, this is the only thing that this is telling you Like. Okay, maybe you need more practice. It doesn't tell any other story. So, Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us and sharing those two very practical exercises with us.
Michelle Sabatini:My pleasure. For me, this is a so important topic. I'm very happy to share it.
Jennifer Walter:Thank you so much for inviting me. And we have one more thing you, where can people find you if they want to hear more of you, if they want to work with you? Where can people find you? So?
Michelle Sabatini:I'm based in turic. I also give sessions online thank you, the corona time and online or my practice in the Schaffhauser Platz, and I'm very happy to offer a first session to people coming from this podcast as a way to thank you and to thank everybody that is interested to explore more what it means not only having a body but being a body, and you find me at body learning, point ch, or michelle at body learning okay we will link that in the show notes and thank you so much for your generosity.
Jennifer Walter:Um, I will, yeah. If anyone wants to discover how it's like working with michelle, yeah, say, mention the scenic route and and she will offer this discovery session. Thank you so much. That's so generous. No, really my pleasure, I need to really, I hope many people will take you up on this. So, Michelle, again thank you so much for being on the CineGround with me.
Michelle Sabatini:Thank you. Thank you very much.
Jennifer Walter:And just like that, we've reached the end of another journey together on the CineGround podcast. Thank you for spending time with us. Curious for more stories or in search of the resources mentioned in today's episode, visit us at cinegrouppodcastcom for everything you need and if you're ready to embrace your CineGroot, I've got something special for you. Step off the beaten path with my scenic route affirmation card deck. It's crafted for those moments when you're seeking courage, yearning to trust your inner voice and eager to carve out a path authentically, unmistakably yours. Pick your scenic route affirmation today and let it support you. Excited about where your journey might lead? I certainly am. Remember, the scenic route is not just about the destination, but the experiences, learnings and joy we discover along the way. Thank you for being here and I look forward to seeing you on the scenic route again.
